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ZZP Intercooler

34K views 70 replies 20 participants last post by  rcclockman 
#1 ·
Has anyone purchased this, im about to buy it and I just wanted some feedback!

Thanks
 
#2 ·
I have not, but I have read about those who have, and it is very effective. I believe it always kept intake temperatures within 2-5 degrees of ambient temperature regardless of throttle load. Very high quality, and very well built. Look for posts by an old member who posted under "limited360."

However, if you install it in a Cruze Eco, you will be required to remove your air shutters.
 
#6 ·
My intake temps don't seem to stray much from 2-5 degrees even if im on a track day. Just seams stop and go traffic it sky rockets +50 degrees. (Short ram intake w/ stock inter-cooler)

What are you guys getting with stock?
 
#8 ·
havent check stock temps. I want to go with a intercooler over water/meth because it is more stable (A GM Tech friend told me, he has 2 meth injected regal grand nationals). My Tech buddy told me its pretty risky if it isnt done right, tuned properly etc. you could easily blow your engine. He told me the intercooler is the more expensive route but its safer and more practical.. Would you agree with this?

Thanks!
 
#9 ·
yeah meth can be risky, and if you plan on running meth and depending on the amount of psi your tuning for the intercooler is a smart upgrade, the biggest risk with the stock piece when pushing for more power would be blowing up the plastic end tanks
 
#10 ·
Thanks a lot for the input, I think coilovers and the intercooler are going to be ordered in a week or so, and that will be it for a while, I have a tune, intake, ZZP down pipe, mid pipe, and borla exhaust, and my gauges.. I think ill be good after the next 2 mods lol, at least till a reliable turbo upgrade comes out for the 1.4
 
#11 ·
The intercooler is there to make other mods possible. On its own, the benefits will not look like a great value, but when you discover how much extra timing you have to advance and what other mods you can now run safely without worrying as much about heat, you understand why it's important.
 
#13 ·
For example to what Andrei said, if you pair the Intercooler with the Meth Kit, you can see better result than just having the Meth Kit alone.

Another example, bigger turbo(or compressor wheel as an upgrade).

Personally, I don't think the intercooler upgrade is worth $700 on a stock set-up. Unless it was 95 degrees outside, I saw intake temps, at best, 3 degrees above ambient with the stock intercool. Can't get much better than that. It does looks good, but I'd rather put the $700 towards something else.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Not for a simple bolt-on, it's not. It's no where near being worth it. Unless you absolutely want it, sure. If I had $700 to blow aimlessly, I would too. But I just can't justify spending that money for a system that the Cruze already has. A tune that promises at least +30-40whp/+40-50wtq costs you what is it, $300 now? That's money well spent.

FWIW, old 240's and DSM's can get intercooler kits for ~$300.

That's a reasonable price..
 
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#29 ·
Yea I would say so

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#32 ·
I highly doubt you are getting charge temperatures "a few degrees" above ambient. If anything, whatever info you are getting on that is your IAT, not your charge temp reading. I have yet to scan my car to verify, but it seems doubtful the charge temps are that low imo.
 
#33 · (Edited)
How can you doubt that?? The Cruzen have FMIC's.

Anyways, actually they are. I'm not lying to anyone. And I'm know many have seen the same. When you view data, you will see. Don't doubt..

I use the Torque App, which communicates directly with the ECM. And FYI, the intake temp sensor is on the charge pipe next to your thermostat. It's a pressure and thermistor sensor in one.

On warmer days, say 80-85 degrees, IATs have been a +4-5 average under load. Cooler days however, say 50 degrees, IATs sit around +2. I use my Torque app every day, I know what I see... lol. :1poke:

And FWIW, I'm using ambient temps on the dash display, which because the ambient sensor is located so close to the ground, it can be optimistic a few degrees from reading pavement heat on the rise. So that +4-5 is probably around a +2 as well, essentially.
 
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#35 ·
View attachment 8383
Hey, whats up Gh0st? I agree. I'd asume the IAT is in the MAF and the Charge Air temp would be between the turbo and the throttle body. Maybe in the intake manifold.
Yup. Whenever the weather clears up I'll do some logging and find out where that second IAT sensor is located.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I'm going to test this theory when I get home from work tonight. I believe there is a temp sensor in the maf witch is used to reference the IAT reduction tables in the tune and the sensor in the above pic is used to reference the boost pressure and POST turbo air temp witch is referenced in in the Power enrichment table. In the tune file it seems the first sensor is for timing and the second one is for fueling. Id say the FREE smart phone app is not going to show both sensors, if it does it would be IAT2 or charge air temp. My MSD Dash Hawk only shows IAT1 witch I believe is the one that's integrated into the maf sensor.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Who said I have the free one? I paid the $5. :)

Yes, you are correct. The MAF sensor is an 8-pin connector, 2 of which are IAT-involved. It may be for timing, I'm not exactly sure, or to reference intercooler/turbo performance too. However, the second one, which I have a picture of above, is the IAT that is used for fueling, referencing differences with first IAT, and of course, display. The second IAT is what really matters.

Its kinda like how there are 2 coolant temp sensors now. One in the engine, and the other is in the radiator. The radiator is only used as a reference for coolant flow. The engine is the primary/critical sensor used for fuel, timing, etc.
 
#40 ·
Sounds good. I'm curious to see how this turns out. It makes me think the ECM monitors the two for sufficient airflow from the first IAT to the second. Like I mentioned with the coolant sensors. Let me see if I can dig something up on SI as well.
 
#41 ·
First IAT affects the addition/subtration of timing based on IAT. The second sensor is for air charge temperature.

Did logging today in pretty much ideal turbo conditions(aka cold as heck) and the IAT's were about 4-5 degrees above ambient and the air charge temp was around 7-9 degrees higher than ambient. That's pretty good, but like I said, ideal conditions.

The only negative I can see of a low air charge temp is in the tune, a low air charge temp calls for the engine to request what I would say is ridiculously lean air fuel mixture for power enrichment. That may explain why the car has 1-2 degrees of knock on 91 octane and goes absolutely nowhere when I floor it. Jamming all that dense air with no additional fueling is the exact opposite what you'd want to do....really don't know why GM did that.
 
#44 ·
Lol... where did you get this info from?

Here is the PE table:



What I also found alarming when scanning is my ECT's were reaching 230 degrees!!! That doesn't seem right especially with as cold as it is outside...Can anyone else comment on how high their ECT gets?
230 is what the engine is intended to run at for maximum fuel economy.

Max boost was about 12psi, is that typical? I thought I read stock was about 16?
Negative, it's 10-12psi.
 
#42 ·
Here is the PE table:



What I also found alarming when scanning is my ECT's were reaching 230 degrees!!! That doesn't seem right especially with as cold as it is outside...Can anyone else comment on how high their ECT gets?
 
#46 ·
New engines run hot for increased fuel economy. Research it. Many others can atest to the 220 degree thermostat, 230 if you're running it hard(or running out of coolant?)

As for the first IAT, there's no way it determines timing. Think about it, why would timing be calculated from an intake air temp value that is guaranteed to change as it passes the hot turbo, ambient intercooler, 4 feet of pipes, etc. The second IAT is used to get true temp values right before it passes the throttle body, not the first one. I'm almost sure the first is used as reference to cooling performance only, that's it.
 
#47 ·
I understand running the engine hotter, but 230 still seems awfully hot. If that's normal for these cars, then it is. The tune shows that car isn't wanting to run that hot(fans go to 100% well before that) unless there's a table I'm missing telling it to. The fans are controlled by a desired ECT, so perhaps there is something desiring a high ECT on purpose. I will look for it.

In regards to your comment about IAT affecting timing, it sounds like you have no experience actually tuning a GM vehicle. If I'm wrong in this assumption, I'd be interested to know your tuning history. IAT and ECT both affect the end-result timing. I'll switch back to Windows 7 on my Macbook Air and show you the IAT tables that affect timing.

The air charge temperature(IAT2) is only referenced as far as I see for determining power enrichment(screenshot I already posted).
 
#48 · (Edited)
Here we go, here is the IAT timing table. These aren't the end values as there also multiplier tables that go against this:



Here is the ECT table. Once again, multipliers go against this:



And here is the fan settings with desired ECTs based on RPM zones. Pretty neat. Looks like putzing around it desires a higher ET and then when you start to get on it the desired ECT drops.

 
#50 ·
Thanks Gh0st, for posting the same screen shots I was about to post. And if you worried about the coolant temp, don't ever set you eyes on the oil temp. 240+ at a steady 65 mph on a 75 deg day.
Weather is still bad by me, so no scanning tonight.
Hehe, you're going to be getting our weather soon :) I'm in Minneapolis, so today was a pain for scanning and I had to pee really bad so I rushed at setting up my scanner. I'm going to scan some more tomorrow to see if anything else if affecting PE fueling. These things are built for fuel economy, so commanding 13.3 AFR isn't too crazy, but I can see how performance with colder air charge temps could greatly be increased if that is indeed the case.

These cars have some awesome controllers, much different than the stuff I have tuned in the past.
 
#52 ·
It looks like a nice piece. If I had a spare $800, I'd own one. At least with all the information above, some one can make an accurate evaluation of how well it works compared to the stock one. IAT temps will not change with this intercooler, but charged air temps or IAT2 sensor should.
 
#53 ·
My first question to ZZP would be. Can you show me the dyno results with IAT & CAT for a tuned car and then the same car with your intercooler & piping on the same day\dyno. If they are using math to arrive at estimated gains then I wouldn't waste my time as there are to many variables. My second question would be who is supplying the intercooler cores for them? How much pressure drop do they have (they all do)? There are a ton junk cores out there that look pretty but won't be any better than the stock (this is the key).

When an intercooler is at max capacity it will not be able to control the CAT on a long pull (1/4 mile), if your temps are staying pretty constant then your wasting your money upgrading, if towards the end of a run they are climbing rapidly its time to look at an upgrade.

If your upgrading your intercooler because you think the stock plastic one is going to break you had better start looking for intake manifolds also as this is plastic too and I have seen them crack but not at 20#'s.

But for $800 I would be calling Precision Turbo and seeing if they can do some work to my factory turbo (different wheels). We took a stock turbo that was all done at 300 hp and had them put a different intake wheel on it (slightly larger billet one). Bang 400 hp and still performed as well as a stock turbo down low.

Good luck guys!
 
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