If you have ever heard of the devil's advocate argument, friend, then rest assured that your foul language is misguided. I am of the belief that PREMIUM fuel is superior. I have said as much in several posts now, if you go back to re-read them.
That's not the issue here. The issue here is that you are spreading misinformation without knowing it. The material in your original post is severely flawed. I'll explain.
Here's the problem: this documentary, by a publicly funded news organization - not the petrol industry - puts forth a compelling argument. They (not me) show that in an average car such as the Chevrolet Cruze, there is absolutely no benefit to using a premium fuel. They back their claims with scientific tests completed by a third-party testing agent. They speak with a leading expert in the field and he unequivocally states that there is no benefit to using a premium fuel. Did you actually watch the piece, or was it easier just to chime in from the sidelines?
The problem with the documentary is that the Chevrolet Cruze is not an average car. How many economy cars are out there that have a turbo strapped to them (excluding sport models like the Cobalt SS or the Neon SRT-4)? Very few, and for a reason. I didn't watch the piece because I could teach the people who made it a thing or two about fuel and detonation. The issue here is of dynamic compression. The Cruze has a dynamic compression MUCH higher than its static compression once boost starts to kick in. If I remember correctly, the turbo on the Cruze produces up to 16psi of boost; which consequentially produces significant amounts of heat. The only reason why the Cruze can run on 87 octane is because the computer is fast enough and intelligent enough to retard spark timing the moment it senses even a smidgin of detonation. The problem with this is that your car is constantly retarding timing, and therefore losing efficiency.
As the son of an career auto mechanic, I am well aware of octane, compression, turbo, et al. Thus the reason I have always preferred premium over the years; Sunoco Ultra 94 if/when I can get my hands on it. It's just that I'm not going to turn a blind eye to facts when presented in a clear, and logical method, because I have pre-conceived notions of what/why/how fuel works. If you and other members here choose to do so, be my guest. That's kind of the whole point of the CBC Marketplace report. No, it's not just some YouTube video. Look them up. CBC Marketplace is a highly respected program similar to what you in the States would call 60 Minutes or 20/20.
This may be nit-picking, but always be critical of your sources when the topic is controversial. Do you think CBC Marketplace is an authority on all automotive topics? I'd wager that it isn't. Who exactly do you think the program was targeted toward?
If you care to actually read some of the corroborating evidence, your own US Federal Trade Commission weighs in on the matter. Following this link you will also note that three of the main companies have "run afoul" of the FTC for misleading ads.
Complaints and Advice - Marketplace
Like I said, as one who wants to continue putting premium fuel in my cars, I would welcome the chance to read something you can link me up to that proves your point. Sadly, making rude comments and questioning a fellow poster's intelligence is not the best way to get a point across in this day and age. Please, prove me wrong with evidence.
XtremeRev: good call on the snow tires, planning ahead is key. As we had barely an inch or two of snow last winter, I'm thinking I'll be fine (as usual) with regular all-season Michelins. Similar to above, remember this is not my article. This report was conducted by a journalist. I'm just sharing it as a means to encourage further discussion about the topic. As you are the super moderator here, I assume this what you want to have happen. Just because something has "always been" doesn't mean it will "always be". Please do not assume that I do not know how something works just because I am willing to present an alternative viewpoint.
The region north of Chicago got a dusting of snow very recently. The news can't stop talking about how many accidents resulted in that snow. Last winter was especially mild. I don't expect this winter to be the same. All it takes is half an inch of snow to ruin your day. I suppose you could more accurately call them winter tires.
As for the rest of this paragraph, I mentioned before and I'll say it again; this horse has been beaten to death on this board repeatedly. The arguments for and against have been made, and there really isn't a question about what the truth is. A month or two from now, someone else will, just as you have, come here and start this same discussion again, and it will end exactly the same way. I do want to encourage discussion, but not when I and this entire board have already discussed it until we were blue in the face. I don't assume you don't know how something works because you want to present an alternative viewpoint; I assume you don't know how it works because if you did, you wouldn't have taken the time to argue in favor of that viewpoint.
I do not have further questions because you (and others) do not seem to be able to show me where it is documented online that premium fuel outperforms regular fuel. As pointed out by the CBC journalists, and their expert, the entire debate MAY BE an industry created myth. Have you watched the entire broadcast? Did you see where, on the dyno hooked up to the monitor, the results were presented as they happened - surprising even the technician who was running the test?
Consider the position in which you've put us. Among automotive experts, this is a no-brainier. This is such an obvious topic that thorough testing and analysis is not even needed. Those of us who have a Torque application on their phones and a Bluetooth OBD2 adapter have scanned their cars while driving and noticed significant amounts of knock retard with lower octane fuels under normal driving conditions and temperatures, and astronomic levels of KR in very high temperatures with a heat soaked engine bay and intercooler. If a claim that higher octane fuel is needed was made and no discernible difference could be felt or recorded during the use of that higher octane fuel by the vast majority of us, then additional information and proof could be demanded to support that claim, but it's simply so obvious and so clear, that nobody wants to waste their time to prove something they already to know just so a critical skeptic could be convinced.
Again, those CBC journalists were correct; but only in cases involving engines that were specifically created with a low static and dynamic compression that had no chance of detonation. The 1.4L Turbo engine in the Cruze is not such an engine, and the high dynamic compression of this motor allows it to benefit from a higher octane fuel. I have personally scanned my car with Torque and saw the KR for myself after I had already felt the difference.
I decided to watch the video anyway, and here's what I saw. They started with a dyno test and recorded the amount of power. A few things to note:
1. The temperature in the shop was manageable, not hot.
2. They were cruising, not accelerating. In otherwords, the engine load was very small. If you've done your research, you'll know that knock only occurs at higher loads, NOT extremely light, cruising loads.
If they wanted to actually validate their tests, they would have taken it to a 1/2 mile track and tested the performance of the car with both regular and premium fuel. In addition, they would have performed their fuel economy testing with heavy city driving, where the difference is the greatest.
The crucial error they made in that video is that they did not test for knock, fuel efficiency, or power during the conditions where the car is the most sensitive to different fuel grades. Under their conditions, even cars that are designed to run on premium octane fuel would have brought back the same results.
This program was a real eye opener for me. In the past, I have even gone so far as to put premium in my mini-vans every fifth tank or so. I want to believe the claims are true. I want to read something more convincing than a tuner's log book. Point me in the right direction - I will read, return, and recant. Until then, my point (based on the CBC Marketplace findings) stands.
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Originally Posted by wayztr
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Xtreme Cruze Eco
2012 Chevrolet Cruze LT
