Cruze Battery Upgrade Options - Page 10

  1. Welcome to Chevy Cruze Forum : Chevrolet Cruze Forums – General discussion forum for Chevy Cruze

    Welcome to Chevy Cruze Forum : Chevrolet Cruze Forums - a website dedicated to all things Chevy Cruze.

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, Join Chevy Cruze Forum : Chevrolet Cruze Forums today!
     
+ Reply to Thread
Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8 9 10
Results 91 to 96 of 96
Like Tree62Likes

Thread: Cruze Battery Upgrade Options

  1. #91
    Learning about my Cruze
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Fl
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by theonlypheonix View Post
    In the newer GM vehicles this intentional voltage variation (11.0V to 15.5V) is a DESIGN feature called RVC which has many modes for determining charge voltage, otherwise in layman terms "smart" voltage regulation. Adding extraneous large farad capacitors may cause voltage oscillations or even the control circuit to not function properly depending on the control loop response time.

    One can find information on RVC more specific to the Cruze by searching this blog or general info at the link below:

    https://srs20assets.service-solutions.com/OEM/GM/en-US/Generic/Downloads/Document%20Library/TL_Sept04.pdf

    CruzeTalk:
    Chevy Cruze regulates voltage to boost fuel economy
    Let me call out bull on this response!
    No way a Capacitor causes 'voltage oscillations', if anything it avoids it.
    And in no way will it affect the 'proper function of the citcuit', if anything, it makes it work much better and secure.
    Unless you're installing a bad (broken) cap.

  2. Remove Advertisements
    Chevy Cruze Forum
    Advertisements
     

  3. #92
    Handbrake Released theonlypheonix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
    Let me call out bull on this response!
    No way a Capacitor causes 'voltage oscillations', if anything it avoids it.
    And in no way will it affect the 'proper function of the citcuit', if anything, it makes it work much better and secure.
    Unless you're installing a bad (broken) cap.

    I see you speak from 38 years experience in control and feedback loops specific to engine electronics or even if any experience in basic electronics? I'm sure the original design never included extraneous high farad capacitors to be added to the circuit as one can see from what happens when even small amounts of extraneous resistance is added thru defective battery ground cables with resulting erratic operation of the charging circuit which so many Cruze owners experience as evidenced by the ground cable recall from GM.

    In your previous post you speak about adding farad(s) of capacitance to even out the normal DESIGNED voltage variance (12.2 to 15.5v) which is the specific intention of the RVC charging circuit. I'm all for experimenting with out cars but have you done a circuit analysis of the response you would expect with that kind of addition? A small amount of capacitance may make no difference but large farad values that could have an impact on the design intention of RVC could have a destabilizing affect on the system overall designed response over the expected temperature operating extremes (-40F to 210+F).

    That's OK... just keep up your voodoo engineering lets us know how it works out for you.
    Last edited by theonlypheonix; 05-15-2017 at 02:21 PM.
    '15 Cruze Diesel- daily driver, currently 57K on clock. Hidden Content
    '05 Bonn GXP North*-head gaskets at 122K mi,head gaskets again at 153Kmi- TTY head bolts replaced w/studs,current 199Kmi
    '05 F350, 6.0L,SB, DRW -work horse at 175Kmi; other diesels owned '80 Rabbit, '85 Toyota Pickup, '85 Olds 88.
    '93 Stealth TT -garage princess but on the road she's King!!

  4. #93
    Learning about my Cruze
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Fl
    Posts
    82
    Quote Originally Posted by theonlypheonix View Post
    I see you speak from 38 years experience in control and feedback loops specific to engine electronics or even if any experience in basic electronics? I'm sure the original design never included extraneous high farad capacitors to be added to the circuit as one can see from what happens when even small amounts of extraneous resistance is added thru defective battery ground cables with resulting erratic operation of the charging circuit which so many Cruze owners experience as evidenced by the ground cable recall from GM.

    In your previous post you speak about adding farad(s) of capacitance to even out the normal DESIGNED voltage variance (12.2 to 15.5v) which is the specific intention of the RVC charging circuit. I'm all for experimenting with out cars but have you done a circuit analysis of the response you would expect with that kind of addition? A small amount of capacitance may make no difference but large farad values that could have an impact on the design intention of RVC could have a destabilizing affect on the system overall designed response over the expected temperature operating extremes (-40F to 210+F).

    That's OK... just keep up your voodoo engineering lets us know how it works out for you.
    And now in plain English, please?
    Because us 'leeks' don't seem to understand your unrelated mumbo-jumbo.

    You can't expect a capacitor to be acting any different than a battery, when being placed in parallel.
    It also adds zero resistance. if anything it reduces resistance.
    I thought you had 38 years of 'experience' in the field?
    Don't tell me you thought I was going to put the cap in series with the battery?

    And especially can't expect it to affect or break a ground.
    And temperatures also have nothing to do with the whole conversation.
    And I don't know what 'out of the normal designed voltage variance' you mean. Since automotive (12V) caps always are rated up to 16V.

    I really don't know what to make of this conversation...
    Last edited by ProDigit; 05-16-2017 at 08:28 PM.

  5. Remove Advertisements
    Chevy Cruze Forum
    Advertisements
     

  6. #94
    Handbrake Released theonlypheonix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
    And now in plain English, please?
    Because us 'leeks' don't seem to understand your unrelated mumbo-jumbo.

    You can't expect a capacitor to be acting any different than a battery, when being placed in parallel.
    It also adds zero resistance. if anything it reduces resistance.
    I thought you had 38 years of 'experience' in the field?
    Don't tell me you thought I was going to put the cap in series with the battery?

    And especially can't expect it to affect or break a ground.
    And temperatures also have nothing to do with the whole conversation.
    And I don't know what 'out of the normal designed voltage variance' you mean. Since automotive (12V) caps always are rated up to 16V.

    I really don't know what to make of this conversation...
    I think we are all here to learn from one another and our individual experiences, some of us have very specific experiences. The two links in my post #90 were to educate you on the whys and what for you observe the voltages vastly varying by design! From a possible low of 11V to 15.5... it happens that way by design NOT transients. Attempting to stabilize those design variations may come at the negative affect of loss of stability because the circuit was never designed to work with Mega farad capacitors but what the heck... try it and report back how it goes for you.
    Last edited by theonlypheonix; 05-17-2017 at 12:16 PM.
    '15 Cruze Diesel- daily driver, currently 57K on clock. Hidden Content
    '05 Bonn GXP North*-head gaskets at 122K mi,head gaskets again at 153Kmi- TTY head bolts replaced w/studs,current 199Kmi
    '05 F350, 6.0L,SB, DRW -work horse at 175Kmi; other diesels owned '80 Rabbit, '85 Toyota Pickup, '85 Olds 88.
    '93 Stealth TT -garage princess but on the road she's King!!

  7. #95
    Handbrake Released theonlypheonix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
    Let me call out bull on this response!
    No way a Capacitor causes 'voltage oscillations', if anything it avoids it.
    And in no way will it affect the 'proper function of the citcuit', if anything, it makes it work much better and secure.
    Unless you're installing a bad (broken) cap.
    ProDigit... what happen to you? I was looking for an engaged discussion on your further thoughts for a Super/Ultra capacitor battery starter and/or booster!

    To help start the discussion here are some basics thoughts which you can pick and choose from where ever you want, the final COST will be the real issue (I don't see the need for a Lithium battery though):


    http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1272735

    http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultr...tors/downloads


    http://www.maxwell.com/images/docume...00619EN_3_.pdf



    Six of these K2 puppies wired in series will get you started literally! Note they are rated 3400Farad at 2.85V so that is why they need to be wired in series which this would get you about a 17V capability. With the regular Cruze charge of max 15.5V allowing a little head room. I still question whether the Cruze charging system has been designed well enough to be stable with this amount of capacitance, note the voltage should still vary as the system detects the changes but probably at a slower rate of change. Who knows it might even save on fuel just like the alternator regen claim is to save 10 miles per full tank of fuel.



    There are several other things you need to worry about... balancing the voltage equally across each of the capacitors for best storage and so that a single capacitor does not receive greater then it rated voltage, you can buy per-assembled circuits for doing this about $68.

    http://www.maxwell.com/images/docume..._1011158_6.pdf


    Then one needs to consider housing/packaging, and lastly the initial capacitor bank charge. Theoretically you will start out at about 0V charge when you receive them. If connected directly to a voltage source these capacitors will appear as a direct short (1.2milli ohms), not good! You will need to give them a limited voltage and current to start with i.e. using a headlamp in series with the voltage source until they reach about an 8V charge from there you should be able to connect to a battery charger till fully charged. This is not every detail but certainly enough to get started if you choose to take this mission? Note this is an experiment for the experienced ONLY and the total storage charge can be hazardous!! Once fully charged max short circuit current has the potential for 10,000 Amps... yes those are AMPs not milliamps !!!

    Other considerations: the rated capacitor operating temperature is max'd at 65C which is lower then most engine compartments esp if one lives in the Phoenix area. For temperature reasons these would be better suited for mounting like they do for the battery on my '05 Bonn GXP, under the rear passenger seat. Note that AGM batteries are rate for about 50C so in that respect the caps have a little advantage.

    There are many youtube videos for this type of science project if you are up to the challenge? Note this is not a proven experiment nor suggestion and one should proceed at their own risk and peril !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb8T-TqvNVE


    One most certainly needs to understand basic electrical design principals due to the extremely high current storage capabilities!
    Last edited by theonlypheonix; 05-19-2017 at 06:31 PM.
    '15 Cruze Diesel- daily driver, currently 57K on clock. Hidden Content
    '05 Bonn GXP North*-head gaskets at 122K mi,head gaskets again at 153Kmi- TTY head bolts replaced w/studs,current 199Kmi
    '05 F350, 6.0L,SB, DRW -work horse at 175Kmi; other diesels owned '80 Rabbit, '85 Toyota Pickup, '85 Olds 88.
    '93 Stealth TT -garage princess but on the road she's King!!

  8. #96
    Handbrake Released theonlypheonix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    212
    Quote Originally Posted by theonlypheonix View Post
    ProDigit... what happen to you? I was looking for an engaged discussion on your further thoughts for a Super/Ultra capacitor battery starter and/or booster!

    To help start the discussion here are some basics thoughts which you can pick and choose from where ever you want, the final COST will be the real issue (I don't see the need for a Lithium battery though):


    How to size ultracapacitors | EE Times

    Maxwell Technologies Ultracapacitors and Supercapacitors as a green, alternative energy resource


    http://www.maxwell.com/images/docume...00619EN_3_.pdf



    Six of these K2 puppies wired in series will get you started literally! Note they are rated 3400Farad at 2.85V so that is why they need to be wired in series which this would get you about a 17V capability. With the regular Cruze charge of max 15.5V allowing a little head room. I still question whether the Cruze charging system has been designed well enough to be stable with this amount of capacitance, note the voltage should still vary as the system detects the changes but probably at a slower rate of change. Who knows it might even save on fuel just like the alternator regen claim is to save 10 miles per full tank of fuel.



    There are several other things you need to worry about... balancing the voltage equally across each of the capacitors for best storage and so that a single capacitor does not receive greater then it rated voltage, you can buy per-assembled circuits for doing this about $68.

    http://www.maxwell.com/images/docume..._1011158_6.pdf


    Then one needs to consider housing/packaging, and lastly the initial capacitor bank charge. Theoretically you will start out at about 0V charge when you receive them. If connected directly to a voltage source these capacitors will appear as a direct short (1.2milli ohms), not good! You will need to give them a limited voltage and current to start with i.e. using a headlamp in series with the voltage source until they reach about an 8V charge from there you should be able to connect to a battery charger till fully charged. This is not every detail but certainly enough to get started if you choose to take this mission? Note this is an experiment for the experienced ONLY and the total storage charge can be hazardous!! Once fully charged max short circuit current has the potential for 10,000 Amps... yes those are AMPs not milliamps !!!

    Other considerations: the rated capacitor operating temperature is max'd at 65C which is lower then most engine compartments esp if one lives in the Phoenix area. For temperature reasons these would be better suited for mounting like they do for the battery on my '05 Bonn GXP, under the rear passenger seat. Note that AGM batteries are rate for about 50C so in that respect the caps have a little advantage.

    There are many youtube videos for this type of science project if you are up to the challenge? Note this is not a proven experiment nor suggestion and one should proceed at their own risk and peril !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb8T-TqvNVE


    One most certainly needs to understand basic electrical design principals due to the extremely high current storage capabilities!
    Still pondering the Lithium battery/Ultra capacitor hybrid approach and whether this makes sense as a cost effective automotive starter battery? LI-PO for small size, high density, and less weight along with an Ultra CAP as an alternative solution for flooded cell or AGM battery. I don't know... maybe a Tech obsessive, complex and very costly solution for an otherwise simple low cost solution (AGM/Flooded cell)?
    Interesting Science project though!

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/417053/a-battery-ultracapacitor-hybrid/

    https://www.bioennopower.com/phttp://www.pe.org.pl/articles/2012/4b/29.pdfages/hybrid-supercapacitor-battery

    The case for ultra capacitor/battery hybrids:

    http://www.pe.org.pl/articles/2012/4b/29.pdf
    Last edited by theonlypheonix; 05-22-2017 at 11:25 PM.
    '15 Cruze Diesel- daily driver, currently 57K on clock. Hidden Content
    '05 Bonn GXP North*-head gaskets at 122K mi,head gaskets again at 153Kmi- TTY head bolts replaced w/studs,current 199Kmi
    '05 F350, 6.0L,SB, DRW -work horse at 175Kmi; other diesels owned '80 Rabbit, '85 Toyota Pickup, '85 Olds 88.
    '93 Stealth TT -garage princess but on the road she's King!!

  9. Remove Advertisements
    Chevy Cruze Forum
    Advertisements
     

+ Reply to Thread
Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8 9 10

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Similar Threads

  1. 1.4L Battery Upsizing, Will larger battery Fit?
    By carbon02 in forum Gen1 Audio & Electronics
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 12-05-2014, 12:35 PM
  2. 2014 Cruze LS wheel options
    By MFCruze14 in forum Gen1 Wheels, Tires, Brakes, & Suspension
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-11-2014, 06:01 PM
  3. Cruze RS Splitter Options?
    By themarknelson in forum Gen1 Appearance, Body, Detailing, & Interior
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-23-2013, 02:19 AM
  4. 2013 cruze options
    By corvairbob in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-03-2013, 11:02 AM
  5. Everyone's opinion on wheel upgrade options for my Cruze
    By osiris10012 in forum Gen1 Wheels, Tires, Brakes, & Suspension
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-04-2011, 12:42 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.1.2