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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here in my city Kwik Trip is now offering 88 octane 15% ethanol for its mid grade.

If you had to choose between that and 87 octane 10% ethanol, which would you choose and why?

That is today's riddle for you.

Joe
 

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If they are not offering it, why would you have to choose?

But, if I had to choose, I would go with 87 and 10, less moisture in the fuel. Or upgrade to 89 / 10 or 93 /10.
 

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I would suggest using 87 Unleaded and if possible, try Ethanol Free gasoline for like 15-25 cents more per gallon. It'll give you roughly between 3-7 more mpg over 87 Unleaded. It'll also give your engine more energy. I would suggest using known stations that offers ethanol free gasoline as some gas stations listed on the site below is also known to selling racing fuel.
https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html
 

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Here in my city Kwik Trip is not offering 88 octane 15% ethanol for its mid grade.

If you had to choose between that and 87 octane 10% ethanol, which would you choose and why?

That is today's riddle for you.

Joe
The more Ethanol the higher Octane

"In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane".

https://mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/blog/item/1511-octane-and-ethanol-for-beginners
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
The more Ethanol the higher Octane

"In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane".

https://mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/blog/item/1511-octane-and-ethanol-for-beginners
My understanding is that the more ethanol the more octane you need, because ethanol burns more quickly especially when put under pressure by a turbo. And yet, ethanol gives less energy per gallon.

My hunch is that 88 octane with 15% ethanol will give my car less energy than 87 octane with 10% ethanol.

I run 87 octane in the winter months and now that it is getting to be consistently over 50 degrees out, I will be switching to 89 octane, 10% ethanol. I just hope we won't be seeing more and more fuel with 15% ethanol in it. I might go with it if they made it with 95 octane and with a price tag that is still better than 87 octane.

I've just come across an article about GM pushing for higher octane and ethanol mandates. I'm not happy with this. https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2018/04/18/those-high-octane-ethanol-mandated-blues/
 

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I would suggest using 87 Unleaded and if possible, try Ethanol Free gasoline for like 15-25 cents more per gallon.
In Michigan, and both states which touch Michigan, it's actually illegal to label your pumps as alcohol free. Call it the product secrecy law, or untruth in labeling act...

Anyway, as a result, you have to go looking to find E0 gasoline around here. It's usually 89-91 octane and marketed for ORVs and outdoor power equipment. Last fall I bought six gallons of 89 octane E0 to have on hand for my generator over the winter, cost me $3.49 when regular was $2.15. Ozygenated and alcoholic fuels don't store long term very well.
I was getting ready to dump the stuff in my Saturn to get rid of it when the power went out for a day and a half last week.

This week it's selling for 3.75 with regular around 2.70. I'll buy a gallon for the chain saws soon, but won't buy it in any volume until September. In the summer months, I just use my lawn mower gas in the generator when needed, but the only reason to keep gas on hand in the winter is for my generator, so it tends to sit in my garage for months at a time.
 

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You may notice slightly better power/response on the E15. Turbo engines love ethanol.

I'd also expect *slightly* less MPG too.
 

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I would guess the mpg drop in going from 10% to 15% ethanol would be near unnoticed on a car that's getting 36+ mpg on the highway ... because when I burned e85 in my Escalade about once every 3-4 months, instead of the typical e10, my highway roadtrip mileage went from around 18.5 to about 14.3. Certainly had more get up and go, and didn't downshift as often as the normal 91 octane fuel. I also use(d) a fuel additive every tankful, but now I run ethanol free fuel in my vehicles as often as I can. Every so often, I'm stuck running e10 though simply because there aren't a lot of stations that carry e-free 91 octane.
 

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I would suggest using 87 Unleaded and if possible, try Ethanol Free gasoline for like 15-25 cents more per gallon. It'll give you roughly between 3-7 more mpg over 87 Unleaded. It'll also give your engine more energy. I would suggest using known stations that offers ethanol free gasoline as some gas stations listed on the site below is also known to selling racing fuel.
https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

I agree with this, but I have not found a top tier gas locally that offers no ethanol. So, I have only put 10% in mine
 

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Why do they love ethanol?
They don't.
They just like the higher octane Ethanol offers (~113 octane).
But in the regular crapanol they have at the pump, the octane levels are the same as regular 87 without crapanol.
What they actually end up doing is mixing poor quality gasoline with low octane levels, with ethanol with high octane levels.
While I don't have the numbers, it'd be similar to, or like mixing 85 octane fuel with 113 octane ethanol, resulting in 87 octane fuel.

Turbos like 113 octane fuel, because you can increase the boost on those types of fuel.
But the regular gasoline rated at 87 octane with 10% ethanol, is a lot worse than 87octane without ethanol.
The only difference between the two, is worse gas mileage.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
They don't.
They just like the higher octane Ethanol offers (~113 octane).
But in the regular crapanol they have at the pump, the octane levels are the same as regular 87 without crapanol.
What they actually end up doing is mixing poor quality gasoline with low octane levels, with ethanol with high octane levels.
While I don't have the numbers, it'd be similar to, or like mixing 85 octane fuel with 113 octane ethanol, resulting in 87 octane fuel.

Turbos like 113 octane fuel, because you can increase the boost on those types of fuel.
But the regular gasoline rated at 87 octane with 10% ethanol, is a lot worse than 87octane without ethanol.
The only difference between the two, is worse gas mileage.
I wonder why they would reduce the octane that naturally occurs in ethanol if that is one of the few things it has going for it...or does octane not naturally occur in ethanol? Or maybe they are mixing it with gasoline with even lower octane than 85...maybe it is around 70 for all we know and they use the cheaper octane from ethanol to compensate, thus saving money? Just curious.
 

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Ethanol burns very slow, and causes lots of problems on older engines (gums up the engine, deteriorates fuel lines, etc...).
For that reason they dilute it to E85 or E10 fuel (85% Ethanol to regular fuel with 10% or less of Ethanol).
But it's also less energy dense than regular fuel, which is why the lower MPG.
Ethanol fuel would cost a lot more than gasoline, if people would use it to fill their tanks. Mix that with their lower energy density, and you'll get why people still drive regular gasoline.
 

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The purpose of E10 is to satisfy government regs written to enrich the corn lobby.
The reason it's E10 and not E20 is to reduce damage to fuel systems that weren't built to handle ethanol.

The purpose of E85 (instead of E100) is to make cold starts possible without using multiple fuels (like the Brazilians used to do with E100 in the main tank and a tiny tank of petrol for starting and warmups).

I'd like to enable the flex fuel maps in my LE2's computer and put an ethanol sensor in the fuel line. Then instead of paying through the nose for premium, I'd put in 3 gallons of cheap E85 and 9 gallons of inexpensive 87 octane at each fillup.
 

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Hazzlitt77-

Can't help notice your in Green Bay with your signature. Are we talking about the Kwik-Trip 88 product that is E-15? This product in accordance with their website is top tier detergent rated. I normally run 89 E10 and have since the car has been new. With Kwik Trip now removing all mid grade gas and going to 87/E10, 88/E15, and the very pricey 91/E0 I'm thinking of considering going back to Kwik Trip and trying a tank of 88/E15.

It's warm out, and I drive enough where fuel separation is not a concern to me. Would I use this product with bitter winter temperatures, maybe not. Potentially better throttle response under load in these warmer temperatures, and possibly not a significant decrease in fuel economy. I want to see how much fuel economy takes a hit if any.

I do wish this was made with 87/E0 and blended up to E15, instead of making it with 85/EO and blending up to 88/E15.

There's a local ethanol co-op gas station that's even cheaper on the E15, but they make no claims as the detergent level of the gasoline.

I've pumped tens of thousands of gallons of kwik trip gas in other cars, back in the day when Mid-grade used to be a nickel cheaper than 87. That was a marketing no brainier for a car guy.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hazzlitt77-

Can't help notice your in Green Bay with your signature. Are we talking about the Kwik-Trip 88 product that is E-15? This product in accordance with their website is top tier detergent rated. I normally run 89 E10 and have since the car has been new. With Kwik Trip now removing all mid grade gas and going to 87/E10, 88/E15, and the very pricey 91/E0 I'm thinking of considering going back to Kwik Trip and trying a tank of 88/E15.

It's warm out, and I drive enough where fuel separation is not a concern to me. Would I use this product with bitter winter temperatures, maybe not. Potentially better throttle response under load in these warmer temperatures, and possibly not a significant decrease in fuel economy. I want to see how much fuel economy takes a hit if any.

I do wish this was made with 87/E0 and blended up to E15, instead of making it with 85/EO and blending up to 88/E15.

There's a local ethanol co-op gas station that's even cheaper on the E15, but they make no claims as the detergent level of the gasoline.

I've pumped tens of thousands of gallons of kwik trip gas in other cars, back in the day when Mid-grade used to be a nickel cheaper than 87. That was a marketing no brainier for a car guy.
Yes, we are talking the same place. Well...let me know how it goes. I think I'm going to stick with 89 octane 10% ethanol which I can still get at the Kwik trip on lombardi avenue, not the other two however. Although, I found it cheapest at Citco on Military north of Shawano...can't remember the intersection. I'm going to watch the price there...and buy from them from now on if they are consistently competitive. Kwik trip use to be :>(
 
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