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I'm hoping @XtremeRevolution can maybe help me answer a couple of questions here, but I thought I'd ask in the form of a post in case anyone else can benefit as well. Perhaps these questions have been answered before, but I haven't really found the definitive answer I'm looking for.

#1: Amsoil Synthetic 5W-30 I-ESP Euro Oil is supposedly now dexos2 "compliant" I believe is the verbiage I keep reading. However, as many of us are now aware, the only official claim that even mentions dexos2 is in the data sheet where it says, "AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic Motor Oil is engineeredfor use in gasoline or diesel vehicles that requires any of thefollowing specifications:" and specifically mentions "GM dexos2." I'm a little confused what dexos2 "compliant" means (or even where that verbiage comes from).

I'm sorry this might be beating a dead horse, and I'm really not questioning the effectiveness or quality of the oil, but since Amsoil does not officially "recommend" this oil for the CTD other than the above mention my main question is will Amsoil still stand behind it should GM try to back out of a powertrain warranty claim because it is not officially a dexos2 oil? Again, my understanding is that by law, GM must prove that the aftermarket oil caused the failure in order to deny the claim, correct? Is that still the case even if it is not officially a licensed oil for this vehicle?

#2: More of an off-topic business question about Amsoil - I'm debating making a large purchase of Amsoil products in the near future - potentially two or three changes worth of engine oil for each of my two cars in addition to possibly some ATF and I might even throw in a few quarts of the 10W-40 Metric Motorcycle Oil for my 250cc Euro style scooter. I'm trying to decide if I'd be better off to do the free shipping option or do the Preferred Customer route, but for some reason I cannot seem to find any information on shipping costs for preferred customers. Is it the same flat rate as sub-$100 orders for non-preferred customers? I'm mostly wanting to make sure I don't get stuck with a large shipping charge that negates most of the Preferred Customer savings.
 
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I believe that Amsoil makes some great oils. With the signature series possibly the best oil available on the retail market.

But I don't believe that Amsoil is some kind of white knight, do nothing wrong, business. They have their weaknesses and imperfections just like everyone else.

The first are these weasel words used by their marketing people. If you take a critical look at their marketing materials you'll see a number of things that don't stand up to a black and white courtroom type of scrutiny. This, by the way, is no different than anyone else in the oil business. But therein lies the problem as the marketing leads us to believe that Amsoil is better than everyone else.

The second is Amsoil's failure to achieve dexos approval. When even oils from Walmart can achieve dexos approval we know it's not because of an upcharge from GM, or oil tax as some describe it as. dexos1 Brands | GM Amsoil is already one of the most expensive oils on the market, what difference does $0.05 a quart really make? So it must be some kind of internal corporate resistance to letting a third party test their oils.

The third is how we're told that if you're denied a warranty repair Amsoil and its lawyers will decend upon GM and your dealer like the Plague. But I've never once come across court transcripts of litigation Amsoil entered into on the behalf of someone who used their oil.

In some respects it seems to me that Amsoil has engenderd loyalties like other direct marketing products like Amway, Nu Skin, Aloette, Herbalife. Almost like a religion. We believe because we want to believe.

So those are my unresolved thoughts on Amsoil. And as I've mentioned on these pages before, and again now for the record, I will likely switch to Amsoil once my existing stocks of Total Quartz are depleted.
 

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The third is how we're told that if you're denied a warranty repair Amsoil and its lawyers will decend upon GM and your dealer like the Plague. But I've never once come across court transcripts of litigation Amsoil entered into on the behalf of someone who used their oil.
I don't think you'll see AMSOil, or any other oil manufacturer, for that matter sue a car company. It's cheaper just to replace the engine.
 

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I also believe Amsoil makes a great oil. I personally am only putting in Dexos 2 oil in my Diesel while it is under warranty which is 5 years or 100k. I just don't want to get into a possible mess with warranty. I hear on here Amsoil has an oil that is approved or something, when I go to the Amsoil website they don't have an oil saying it is approved for the Cruze diesel. Maybe I did something wrong on the website? I dunno.
 

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I believe the dexos2 certification is fairly recent, so I wouldn't be surprised if their messaging is still a bit inconsistent. When I ordered the 5W-30 awhile ago, it didn't list dexos2, but it did list ACEA 3 compliance. My understanding is that dexos2 is a trademarked certification that you have to pay money for, while ACEA 3 is an industry standard that is just as strict, but not owned by GM.

My shipping on 10 quarts of oil, a filter, and a filter wrench was 10.39. The box weighed 22 pounds. I saved about $40 with the Preferred Customer option (so 30ish once you consider shipping costs).
 

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Amsoil is already one of the most expensive oils on the market, what difference does $0.05 a quart really make? So it must be some kind of internal corporate resistance to letting a third party test their oils.
I just got their most recent marketing magazine yesterday. They talk about the testing for their 5W-30 oils in it. According to them, the use a third party lab, and have them run the "100-hour Sequence IIIG Engine Test (ASTM D 7320)". Then they run that same oil for another 100 hours. After the 200 hour mark, apparently the 5W-30 was still 75% above the standards.

However, while trying to find an online copy of this test, so that I didn't have to type it out, I found this instead:

European Car Formula Evolves

European Car Formula 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil (AEL) has been reformulated to broaden its application potential in European and domestic models, including the Chevrolet* Cruze* Clean Turbo Diesel, Jeep* Grand Cherokee* 3.0L EcoDiesel* V6 and Dodge* Ram* 1500 EcoDiesel. It now meets the following additional specifications:

  • Chrysler MS-11106
  • ACEA C3
  • GM dexos2™
The new formulation will be available in quarts and drums once the current formulation sells out. Forecasts predict the current formulation to last through January. The new formulation is available in gallons Dec. 1.
 

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I just got their most recent marketing magazine yesterday. They talk about the testing for their 5W-30 oils in it. According to them, the use a third party lab, and have them run the "100-hour Sequence IIIG Engine Test (ASTM D 7320)". Then they run that same oil for another 100 hours. After the 200 hour mark, apparently the 5W-30 was still 75% above the standards.

However, while trying to find an online copy of this test, so that I didn't have to type it out, I found this instead:

European Car Formula Evolves

That page shows the real issue with manufacturer specifications. On that page alone you have Chrysler, GM, Porsche, and Mercedes Benz. Toyota has it's own oil specs, Honda most likely has theirs, etc. Given all the different specs and the costs associated with getting the "blessing" of each company it's amazing that any oil manufacturer goes through the brain and wallet damage to get on the approved list.
 

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I don't think you'll see AMSOil, or any other oil manufacturer, for that matter sue a car company. It's cheaper just to replace the engine.
I take your point.

So let's say that was $5,000 that they coughed up. $5,000 / $0.05 = 100,000 quarts of dexos licensing fees.

I dont buy the ' Amsoil not doing dexos oil tax' argument.
 
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I just got their most recent marketing magazine yesterday. They talk about the testing for their 5W-30 oils in it. According to them, the use a third party lab, and have them run the "100-hour Sequence IIIG Engine Test (ASTM D 7320)". Then they run that same oil for another 100 hours. After the 200 hour mark, apparently the 5W-30 was still 75% above the standards.

However, while trying to find an online copy of this test, so that I didn't have to type it out, I found this instead:

European Car Formula Evolves

So Amsoil's marketing says that it now meets dexos2.

The next question is simple: WTF have people been using for the past two plus years if the oil only now meets dexos2?
 
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I'm hoping @XtremeRevolution can maybe help me answer a couple of questions here, but I thought I'd ask in the form of a post in case anyone else can benefit as well. Perhaps these questions have been answered before, but I haven't really found the definitive answer I'm looking for.

#1: Amsoil Synthetic 5W-30 I-ESP Euro Oil is supposedly now dexos2 "compliant" I believe is the verbiage I keep reading. However, as many of us are now aware, the only official claim that even mentions dexos2 is in the data sheet where it says, "AMSOIL European Car Formula Synthetic Motor Oil is engineeredfor use in gasoline or diesel vehicles that requires any of thefollowing specifications:" and specifically mentions "GM dexos2." I'm a little confused what dexos2 "compliant" means (or even where that verbiage comes from).

I'm sorry this might be beating a dead horse, and I'm really not questioning the effectiveness or quality of the oil, but since Amsoil does not officially "recommend" this oil for the CTD other than the above mention my main question is will Amsoil still stand behind it should GM try to back out of a powertrain warranty claim because it is not officially a dexos2 oil? Again, my understanding is that by law, GM must prove that the aftermarket oil caused the failure in order to deny the claim, correct? Is that still the case even if it is not officially a licensed oil for this vehicle?

#2: More of an off-topic business question about Amsoil - I'm debating making a large purchase of Amsoil products in the near future - potentially two or three changes worth of engine oil for each of my two cars in addition to possibly some ATF and I might even throw in a few quarts of the 10W-40 Metric Motorcycle Oil for my 250cc Euro style scooter. I'm trying to decide if I'd be better off to do the free shipping option or do the Preferred Customer route, but for some reason I cannot seem to find any information on shipping costs for preferred customers. Is it the same flat rate as sub-$100 orders for non-preferred customers? I'm mostly wanting to make sure I don't get stuck with a large shipping charge that negates most of the Preferred Customer savings.
Dexos1 and Dexos2 are a license that the company has to pay for, on which further royalties are charged per gallon of product sold. Some companies choose not to certify, and simply test their oils to ensure that it meets or exceeds the specifications for which those licenses are made. When AMSOIL states that their product is dexos2 compliant, it means that they did not pay to have it certified direct through GM, and instead are stating that the oil meets or exceeds the specifications. To explain specifications better, they are a series of metrics that an oil must meet in order to be considered "approved." For example, with dexos1, the oil must have a NOACK volatility of no higher than 13%. AMSOIL's Signature Series oil is listed as dexos1 compliant, with a 7.5% NOACK volatility. There are other such metrics that oils must meet. In an honest world, licensing and approval would be free upon demonstration that the manufacturer's oil meets the specifications, but we live in a blood-sucking litigious world. AMSOIL did not pay to license their oil with GM, and does not pay per-gallon royalties to GM. They do, however, meet or exceed that specification.

Another reason why a manufacturer may choose not to certify is if one irrelevant aspect of their oil does not meet that specification. For example, oxidation or thermo-oxidation may be part of those tests. Remember, these tests are designed to be used on petroleum-based products. AMSOIL, making a great number of ester blended products, will test differently. It does not mean that they will be worse, but simply that the method through which testing is performed is skewed due to the different base oil. Oxidation refers to the oil's reaction to oxygen and consequent deposit and sludge formation. Ester base oils consistently test at high oxidation levels, even when brand new. If you looked at Mobil 1, with an oxidation of, say, 10, and AMSOIL Signature Series with an oxidation of 50, you might otherwise be inclined to believe that the oil oxidized. The actual truth would be that the test simply isn't designed to accurately report anything other than petroleum-based base oils.

With respect to the business question, it is cheaper to use the preferred customer account. I'll send you a PM with some details that I'm not allowed to post publicly. If anyone else wants more information, please private message me about it.

So Amsoil's marketing says that it now meets dexos2.

The next question is simple: WTF have people been using for the past two plus years if the oil only now meets dexos2?
An oil that meets even more stringent VW/Mercedes specifications. :)
 

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I take your point.

So let's say that was $5,000 that they coughed up. $5,000 / $0.05 = 100,000 quarts of dexos licensing fees.

I dont buy the ' Amsoil not doing dexos oil tax' argument.
Now add Chrysler, Porsche, Mercedes Benz plus any other car company that has a "blessed oil list". Licensing costs then climb => $5,000 / ($0.05 * 4 car companies) = 400,000 quarts of oil. If you're mass marketing your oil then this is still a rounding error in your financials, but if you're a niche player like AMSOil this is starting to be real money for you.

Also, don't forget that all these "blessing" come with a hidden cost - you can't reformulate your oil to improve it without going through the testing process again. Your example nickle a quart is the licensing fee. It's not the testing costs.
 

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I believe that Amsoil makes some great oils. With the signature series possibly the best oil available on the retail market.

But I don't believe that Amsoil is some kind of white knight, do nothing wrong, business. They have their weaknesses and imperfections just like everyone else.

The first are these weasel words used by their marketing people. If you take a critical look at their marketing materials you'll see a number of things that don't stand up to a black and white courtroom type of scrutiny. This, by the way, is no different than anyone else in the oil business. But therein lies the problem as the marketing leads us to believe that Amsoil is better than everyone else.

The second is Amsoil's failure to achieve dexos approval. When even oils from Walmart can achieve dexos approval we know it's not because of an upcharge from GM, or oil tax as some describe it as. dexos1 Brands | GM Amsoil is already one of the most expensive oils on the market, what difference does $0.05 a quart really make? So it must be some kind of internal corporate resistance to letting a third party test their oils.

The third is how we're told that if you're denied a warranty repair Amsoil and its lawyers will decend upon GM and your dealer like the Plague. But I've never once come across court transcripts of litigation Amsoil entered into on the behalf of someone who used their oil.

In some respects it seems to me that Amsoil has engenderd loyalties like other direct marketing products like Amway, Nu Skin, Aloette, Herbalife. Almost like a religion. We believe because we want to believe.

So those are my unresolved thoughts on Amsoil. And as I've mentioned on these pages before, and again now for the record, I will likely switch to Amsoil once my existing stocks of Total Quartz are depleted.
Everyone has weaknesses, but there is one thing I have learned in my studies of lubrication and experience with the product through dozens upon dozens of oil analysis reports (which I've started paying a portion of for my customers). AMSOIL's weakness will not be that their product is inferior. Their entire purpose, from day one, was to make the best oil they possibly could. A year or so ago, they needed to improve the durability of their signature series oil, and when Lubrizol could no longer manufacture a better additive, they started buying raw materials and formulated their own. That's just one example. Their entire business strategy is to make the best lubricant one can possibly make, so that as long as you use the correct product for the application, a better option will not exist, price be damned. I truly believe that they make the best product for a given application, and I challenge anyone who thinks they've found something better to make a technical case for it. I've found somewhat comparable products to Signature Series, like Xado Atomic 0W-30, which cost $16 per liter. I hear they use it in rally cars.

They are the biggest of the "small" oil companies and have the greatest testing and development capabilities, as they are also the oldest. The large companies will produce products that have to meet a mass marketed price point. When you want to show up on a Walmart shelf, Walmart tells YOU what price they will stock it for. It is up to you, the producer, to formulate your product so that you can hope to make a profit at that price point. AMSOIL caters to the enthusiast, and I have yet to see them budge on that wholesale price with the exception of direct jobber conventions, which are very exclusive to highly successful dealers.

Oils at WalMart are produced by massive oil conglomerates that can easily swallow the cost of those licensing fees due to sheer volume. Remember, these are minimum specification approvals. Placing any importance on them aside from simple compliance is not even worthwhile.

The legal issue regarding compliance seems to be exclusive to Canada. I don't know what's wrong with your dealers up there, but they seem to have a stick up their you know what when it comes to warranty related repairs. Out here in the US, some GM dealers even sell and service AMSOIL products, and GM trainers go around to dealerships admitting if not blatantly teaching that AMSOIL makes better products than anything GM does. Two good friends that work at GM dealers have mentioned this exact thing to me. The difference in how dealers handle aftermarket lubricants is staggering. Perhaps with the more litigious society we have, dealers are less likely to try to get away with wrongfully denying a warranty.

I was part of the mentality you spoke of for a while, until I began to research the material for myself and took a very good, hard look at the product from a technical side. My findings only validated my previous beliefs.
 

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Everyone has weaknesses, but there is one thing I have learned in my studies of lubrication and experience with the product through dozens upon dozens of oil analysis reports (which I've started paying a portion of for my customers). AMSOIL's weakness will not be that their product is inferior. Their entire purpose, from day one, was to make the best oil they possibly could. A year or so ago, they needed to improve the durability of their signature series oil, and when Lubrizol could no longer manufacture a better additive, they started buying raw materials and formulated their own. That's just one example. Their entire business strategy is to make the best lubricant one can possibly make, so that as long as you use the correct product for the application, a better option will not exist, price be damned. I truly believe that they make the best product for a given application, and I challenge anyone who thinks they've found something better to make a technical case for it. I've found somewhat comparable products to Signature Series, like Xado Atomic 0W-30, which cost $16 per liter. I hear they use it in rally cars.

They are the biggest of the "small" oil companies and have the greatest testing and development capabilities, as they are also the oldest. The large companies will produce products that have to meet a mass marketed price point. When you want to show up on a Walmart shelf, Walmart tells YOU what price they will stock it for. It is up to you, the producer, to formulate your product so that you can hope to make a profit at that price point. AMSOIL caters to the enthusiast, and I have yet to see them budge on that wholesale price with the exception of direct jobber conventions, which are very exclusive to highly successful dealers.

Oils at WalMart are produced by massive oil conglomerates that can easily swallow the cost of those licensing fees due to sheer volume. Remember, these are minimum specification approvals. Placing any importance on them aside from simple compliance is not even worthwhile.

The legal issue regarding compliance seems to be exclusive to Canada. I don't know what's wrong with your dealers up there, but they seem to have a stick up their you know what when it comes to warranty related repairs. Out here in the US, some GM dealers even sell and service AMSOIL products, and GM trainers go around to dealerships admitting if not blatantly teaching that AMSOIL makes better products than anything GM does. Two good friends that work at GM dealers have mentioned this exact thing to me. The difference in how dealers handle aftermarket lubricants is staggering. Perhaps with the more litigious society we have, dealers are less likely to try to get away with wrongfully denying a warranty.

I was part of the mentality you spoke of for a while, until I began to research the material for myself and took a very good, hard look at the product from a technical side. My findings only validated my previous beliefs.
So let me summarize your post and extrapolate the following in my own words:

Amsoil's best oils (signature series) are better than anything else available to the enthusiast on the retail market.

Amsoil does not not follow the normal corporate model as employed by the 'Big Oil' companies. Therefore drawing direct comparisons can lead to inaccurate conclusions.

You, as a person of great personal integrity, and someone who has long ago earned my enduring respect, have conducted your own due diligence and determined Amsoil to be worthy of your endorsement and personal 'brand'.
 

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Dexos1 and Dexos2 are a license that the company has to pay for, on which further royalties are charged per gallon of product sold. Some companies choose not to certify, and simply test their oils to ensure that it meets or exceeds the specifications for which those licenses are made. When AMSOIL states that their product is dexos2 compliant, it means that they did not pay to have it certified direct through GM, and instead are stating that the oil meets or exceeds the specifications. To explain specifications better, they are a series of metrics that an oil must meet in order to be considered "approved." For example, with dexos1, the oil must have a NOACK volatility of no higher than 13%. AMSOIL's Signature Series oil is listed as dexos1 compliant, with a 7.5% NOACK volatility. There are other such metrics that oils must meet. In an honest world, licensing and approval would be free upon demonstration that the manufacturer's oil meets the specifications, but we live in a blood-sucking litigious world. AMSOIL did not pay to license their oil with GM, and does not pay per-gallon royalties to GM. They do, however, meet or exceed that specification.

Another reason why a manufacturer may choose not to certify is if one irrelevant aspect of their oil does not meet that specification. For example, oxidation or thermo-oxidation may be part of those tests. Remember, these tests are designed to be used on petroleum-based products. AMSOIL, making a great number of ester blended products, will test differently. It does not mean that they will be worse, but simply that the method through which testing is performed is skewed due to the different base oil. Oxidation refers to the oil's reaction to oxygen and consequent deposit and sludge formation. Ester base oils consistently test at high oxidation levels, even when brand new. If you looked at Mobil 1, with an oxidation of, say, 10, and AMSOIL Signature Series with an oxidation of 50, you might otherwise be inclined to believe that the oil oxidized. The actual truth would be that the test simply isn't designed to accurately report anything other than petroleum-based base oils.

With respect to the business question, it is cheaper to use the preferred customer account. I'll send you a PM with some details that I'm not allowed to post publicly. If anyone else wants more information, please private message me about it.



An oil that meets even more stringent VW/Mercedes specifications. :)
A-*******-men. Great post from someone who knows their oil. People act like some of these certs are rocket science. They really are not. I do not need to be an engineer to figure it out.

Dexo2 = low SAPS, HTHS 3.5 or greater and I'm sure there's a NOACK limit but AMSoil isn't even close to it.

REGARDLESS the users manual says Acea C3 is OK. It does not need to be certified Dexos2.
 

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The third is how we're told that if you're denied a warranty repair Amsoil and its lawyers will decend upon GM and your dealer like the Plague. But I've never once come across court transcripts of litigation Amsoil entered into on the behalf of someone who used their oil.
I think the absence is easily explained - it's never gotten that far. It's probably never gotten past the lawyer nastygram stage. Something that's not going to be on public record.
 
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Everyone has weaknesses, but there is one thing I have learned in my studies of lubrication and experience with the product through dozens upon dozens of oil analysis reports (which I've started paying a portion of for my customers). AMSOIL's weakness will not be that their product is inferior. Their entire purpose, from day one, was to make the best oil they possibly could. A year or so ago, they needed to improve the durability of their signature series oil, and when Lubrizol could no longer manufacture a better additive, they started buying raw materials and formulated their own. That's just one example. Their entire business strategy is to make the best lubricant one can possibly make, so that as long as you use the correct product for the application, a better option will not exist, price be damned. I truly believe that they make the best product for a given application, and I challenge anyone who thinks they've found something better to make a technical case for it. I've found somewhat comparable products to Signature Series, like Xado Atomic 0W-30, which cost $16 per liter. I hear they use it in rally cars.

They are the biggest of the "small" oil companies and have the greatest testing and development capabilities, as they are also the oldest. The large companies will produce products that have to meet a mass marketed price point. When you want to show up on a Walmart shelf, Walmart tells YOU what price they will stock it for. It is up to you, the producer, to formulate your product so that you can hope to make a profit at that price point. AMSOIL caters to the enthusiast, and I have yet to see them budge on that wholesale price with the exception of direct jobber conventions, which are very exclusive to highly successful dealers.

Oils at WalMart are produced by massive oil conglomerates that can easily swallow the cost of those licensing fees due to sheer volume. Remember, these are minimum specification approvals. Placing any importance on them aside from simple compliance is not even worthwhile.

The legal issue regarding compliance seems to be exclusive to Canada. I don't know what's wrong with your dealers up there, but they seem to have a stick up their you know what when it comes to warranty related repairs. Out here in the US, some GM dealers even sell and service AMSOIL products, and GM trainers go around to dealerships admitting if not blatantly teaching that AMSOIL makes better products than anything GM does. Two good friends that work at GM dealers have mentioned this exact thing to me. The difference in how dealers handle aftermarket lubricants is staggering. Perhaps with the more litigious society we have, dealers are less likely to try to get away with wrongfully denying a warranty.

I was part of the mentality you spoke of for a while, until I began to research the material for myself and took a very good, hard look at the product from a technical side. My findings only validated my previous beliefs.
Starting to better understand Amsoil. Is it fair to say that the major brands that are sold at Walmart and used by gm dealers in some cases probably sell a 100 units or more for every unit that Amsoil sells? If that is the case I better understand why Amsoil has a harder time paying all the dexos fees and fees for additional manufactures? How much of something sold doesn't always correlate to quality.
 
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Starting to better understand Amsoil. Is it fair to say that the major brands that are sold at Walmart and used by gm dealers in some cases probably sell a 100 units or more for ever unit that Amsoil sells? If that is the case I better understand why Amsoil has a harder time paying all the dexos fees and fees for additional manufactures? How much of something sold doesn't always correlate to quality.
I don't know the actual volume numbers. It may be close. AMSOIL's options are almost all enthusiast products. They are for people who want something better, or the best they can get their hands on, and understand the benefits the oils offer, such as extended drains. They don't make them to compete on a mass market level, and they don't sell them in chain stores for the same reason. When comparable oils sell for $16/liter USD and AMSOIL's sells for far less, these certifications usually mean the difference between increasing prices or not.
 

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By the way, on a side but somewhat related note, my old Benz has Amsoil transmission fluid in it now and the difference in how easy/smooth it was to shift is night and day different. The Amsoil made it feel like a brand new transmission again. (It's a manual transmission)
 

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I don't know the actual volume numbers. It may be close. AMSOIL's options are almost all enthusiast products. They are for people who want something better, or the best they can get their hands on, and understand the benefits the oils offer, such as extended drains. They don't make them to compete on a mass market level, and they don't sell them in chain stores for the same reason. When comparable oils sell for $16/liter USD and AMSOIL's sells for far less, these certifications usually mean the difference between increasing prices or not.
up here coast to coast Canadian tire stores sell amsoil off the shelf.
 
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