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Cruze Battery Upgrade Options

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I had this discussion with bartonmd on the FB group earlier today and he provided a few options for battery replacement upgrades over what we have from GM. As you guys may know, the 1.8/1.4T battery tray is adjustable and has plenty of room left for a bigger battery.

Here are the specs for the OEM H5/47 group size, from an AutoCraft Gold battery:

H5/47:
520 Cold cranking amps
7.5" Height
9.57" Length
6.938" Width
Weight: 45 lbs
Price: $161.99

The following two group sizes fit in our battery trays. Here are the specs I found for the Advance Auto AutoCraft Platinum AGM battery. I strongly recommend any AGM battery. I've posted the differences over the OEM battery (assuming the AutoCraft Gold is equivalent or similar) in bolded green. The CCA specs and prices will vary slightly but not by a whole lot.

H6/48:
760 Cold cranking amps (+240 CCA = +46%)
7.5" Height
11" Length
6.938" Width
Weight: 45.66lbs (+0.66lbs = +1.5%)
Price: $174.99 (+$13 = +8%)

H7/94R:
850 CCA (+330 CCA = +63%)
7.5" Height
12.44" Length
6.938" Width
Weight: 51.83lbs (+6.83lbs = +15%)
Price: $187.99 (+$26 = +16%)


Here is what the OEM H5 battery looks like in the battery tray:


Here is what the H6/48 battery looks like in the battery tray:


Here's a picture of the H7/94R battery in the Cruze:



Remember, if you have an Advance Auto Parts store near by, there is almost always a 30% coupon available that will knock $50 off the price of a battery. Order online to pick up in store.
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Car and Truck Automotive Batteries - Buy a Vehicle Battery for Cars or Trucks | Interstate Batteries - Mega-Tron Plus 94R/H7 Automotive Battery Six-Year Performance 790 CCAThis is a great thread. I wanted to add my input and findings. I have always used Interstate Mega Tron batteries. I am on my second one in my truck, the first one I replaced after 7 years of being started everyday in temps from -14 to 100 degrees. It ran extra lighting too and a bigger alternator charged it, it is 1000CA and I think about 880 CCA. Biggest one I could fit.

So I am glad I found this thread so when I need a battery I can fit the biggest one. The MTP 94R/H7 is 985CA/790CCA but weight is 42.9 lbs, so way less than the AGM stated in the OP's post.

I wonder what gives?

I will go interstate for my Cruze as I like to support local and they always have really good pricing.
 
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aAhh, nevermind I see what I did wrong in comparing
 

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What I would do, is buy a Lithium battery, and put a 3Farad cap in parallel with the battery.
The CAP is just there to smooth out the charging current.
1 or 0.5 Farad cap will be just as good, but since it's only a few bucks more for a 3 Farad, I'd just get a 3 farad.
Besides, they also help in case you have a power-hungry radio with subs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #84 ·
What I would do, is buy a Lithium battery, and put a 3Farad cap in parallel with the battery.
The CAP is just there to smooth out the charging current.
1 or 0.5 Farad cap will be just as good, but since it's only a few bucks more for a 3 Farad, I'd just get a 3 farad.
Besides, they also help in case you have a power-hungry radio with subs.
The failure rate of cheap caps is high enough that I wouldn't recommend this to everyone as a replacement for an OEM battery. The combination may not have enough cold cranking capacity for everyone else to start their cars with on exceptionally cold days here in the northern midwest. Good caps cost as much as a battery, so at that point, you may as well just pick up an H7 AGM and be done with it. A cap is really just a bandaid for a weak electrical system when it comes to sound systems, and has a tendency to mask real electrical issues that should be addressed.
 

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What I would do, is buy a Lithium battery, and put a 3Farad cap in parallel with the battery.
The CAP is just there to smooth out the charging current.
1 or 0.5 Farad cap will be just as good, but since it's only a few bucks more for a 3 Farad, I'd just get a 3 farad.
Besides, they also help in case you have a power-hungry radio with subs.
Sorry I missed your stated goal??:unsure::question::confused::icon_scratch: Is it the most expensive battery/charging system??:huh: Also note that most Lithium battery manufacturers state " Do not de-sulfate any lithium ion battery" which is what the Cruze charging system does periodically .

If you are just trying to squeeze a little more juice out you could shoe horn a group size 27F AGM from Battery Plus!


XtremeRevolution
simply states the issue for you.

Lithium battery: $1999.00
https://www.lithiumpros.com/product/lithium-pros-m3110-12v110ah-starting-lithium-ion-battery/

Ultra/Super capacitors: $110 - $200
12V super capacitor module 6x 350 farad caps 300A (engine starting, car audio) | eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapaci...6F-/262698926084?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maxwell-Boo...30dbe4b&pid=100009&rk=1&rkt=1&sd=262633838704

https://www.amazon.com/Farad-Electric-Double-Layer-Capacitor/dp/B00OYILTOA

https://www.escomponents.com/capacitors-ultracapacitors?gclid=CI-Z8ITn2dMCFQQLaQoddn4NsA
 

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The failure rate of cheap caps is high enough that I wouldn't recommend this to everyone as a replacement for an OEM battery. The combination may not have enough cold cranking capacity for everyone else to start their cars with on exceptionally cold days here in the northern midwest. Good caps cost as much as a battery, so at that point, you may as well just pick up an H7 AGM and be done with it. A cap is really just a bandaid for a weak electrical system when it comes to sound systems, and has a tendency to mask real electrical issues that should be addressed.
It depends on what the peak loads are. if you install it in a stock cruze, there's no reason it should fail at all, for the lifetime of the vehicle.
If you have a serious sound system upgrade, you may want to upgrade the caps.
But for anything under 500W RMS, I see no reason to not use these caps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #87 ·
For anything under 500W rms, I see no reason TO use a capacitor. In fact, given that all they really do is bandaid weak electrical systems, I don't see as reason to use one, ever.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
 

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It's not necessary, indeed. It just gives a more stable charging current, less voltage fluctuations or spikes, and should help the battery live a little longer.
If you turn on the digital volt meter on the car's dash, you can see that voltages can quickly fluctuate between 12.6V and 14.8V.
A cap can even them out.
It can also help with better starting on a worn or cold battery; but the difference is minimal
 

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It's not necessary, indeed. It just gives a more stable charging current, less voltage fluctuations or spikes, and should help the battery live a little longer.
If you turn on the digital volt meter on the car's dash, you can see that voltages can quickly fluctuate between 12.6V and 14.8V.
A cap can even them out.
It can also help with better starting on a worn or cold battery; but the difference is minimal
Voltage fluctuates like that because the alternator disengages itself when accelerating or not needed for fuel economy.
 

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It's not necessary, indeed. It just gives a more stable charging current, less voltage fluctuations or spikes, and should help the battery live a little longer.
If you turn on the digital volt meter on the car's dash, you can see that voltages can quickly fluctuate between 12.6V and 14.8V.
A cap can even them out.
It can also help with better starting on a worn or cold battery; but the difference is minimal
In the newer GM vehicles this intentional voltage variation (11.0V to 15.5V) is a DESIGN feature called RVC which has many modes for determining charge voltage, otherwise in layman terms "smart" voltage regulation. Adding extraneous large farad capacitors may cause voltage oscillations or even the control circuit to not function properly depending on the control loop response time.:th_down:

One can find information on RVC more specific to the Cruze by searching this blog or general info at the link below:

https://srs20assets.service-solutions.com/OEM/GM/en-US/Generic/Downloads/Document%20Library/TL_Sept04.pdf

CruzeTalk:
[url]http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/17-off-topic-discussion/1339-chevy-cruze-regulates-voltage-boost-fuel-economy.html


[/URL]
 

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In the newer GM vehicles this intentional voltage variation (11.0V to 15.5V) is a DESIGN feature called RVC which has many modes for determining charge voltage, otherwise in layman terms "smart" voltage regulation. Adding extraneous large farad capacitors may cause voltage oscillations or even the control circuit to not function properly depending on the control loop response time.:th_down:

One can find information on RVC more specific to the Cruze by searching this blog or general info at the link below:

https://srs20assets.service-solutions.com/OEM/GM/en-US/Generic/Downloads/Document%20Library/TL_Sept04.pdf

CruzeTalk:
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/17-o...uze-regulates-voltage-boost-fuel-economy.html
Let me call out bull on this response!
No way a Capacitor causes 'voltage oscillations', if anything it avoids it.
And in no way will it affect the 'proper function of the citcuit', if anything, it makes it work much better and secure.
Unless you're installing a bad (broken) cap.
 

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Let me call out bull on this response!
No way a Capacitor causes 'voltage oscillations', if anything it avoids it.
And in no way will it affect the 'proper function of the citcuit', if anything, it makes it work much better and secure.
Unless you're installing a bad (broken) cap.

I see you speak from 38 years experience in control and feedback loops specific to engine electronics or even if any experience in basic electronics? I'm sure the original design never included extraneous high farad capacitors to be added to the circuit as one can see from what happens when even small amounts of extraneous resistance is added thru defective battery ground cables with resulting erratic operation of the charging circuit which so many Cruze owners experience as evidenced by the ground cable recall from GM.

In your previous post you speak about adding farad(s) of capacitance to even out the normal DESIGNED voltage variance (12.2 to 15.5v) which is the specific intention of the RVC charging circuit. I'm all for experimenting with out cars but have you done a circuit analysis of the response you would expect with that kind of addition? A small amount of capacitance may make no difference but large farad values that could have an impact on the design intention of RVC could have a destabilizing affect on the system overall designed response over the expected temperature operating extremes (-40F to 210+F).

That's OK... just keep up your voodoo engineering lets us know how it works out for you. :not_worthy::hope:
 

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I see you speak from 38 years experience in control and feedback loops specific to engine electronics or even if any experience in basic electronics? I'm sure the original design never included extraneous high farad capacitors to be added to the circuit as one can see from what happens when even small amounts of extraneous resistance is added thru defective battery ground cables with resulting erratic operation of the charging circuit which so many Cruze owners experience as evidenced by the ground cable recall from GM.

In your previous post you speak about adding farad(s) of capacitance to even out the normal DESIGNED voltage variance (12.2 to 15.5v) which is the specific intention of the RVC charging circuit. I'm all for experimenting with out cars but have you done a circuit analysis of the response you would expect with that kind of addition? A small amount of capacitance may make no difference but large farad values that could have an impact on the design intention of RVC could have a destabilizing affect on the system overall designed response over the expected temperature operating extremes (-40F to 210+F).

That's OK... just keep up your voodoo engineering lets us know how it works out for you. :not_worthy::hope::dazed002:
And now in plain English, please?
Because us 'leeks' don't seem to understand your unrelated mumbo-jumbo.

You can't expect a capacitor to be acting any different than a battery, when being placed in parallel.
It also adds zero resistance. if anything it reduces resistance.
I thought you had 38 years of 'experience' in the field?
Don't tell me you thought I was going to put the cap in series with the battery?

And especially can't expect it to affect or break a ground.
And temperatures also have nothing to do with the whole conversation.
And I don't know what 'out of the normal designed voltage variance' you mean. Since automotive (12V) caps always are rated up to 16V.

I really don't know what to make of this conversation...
 

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And now in plain English, please?
Because us 'leeks' don't seem to understand your unrelated mumbo-jumbo.

You can't expect a capacitor to be acting any different than a battery, when being placed in parallel.
It also adds zero resistance. if anything it reduces resistance.
I thought you had 38 years of 'experience' in the field?
Don't tell me you thought I was going to put the cap in series with the battery?

And especially can't expect it to affect or break a ground.
And temperatures also have nothing to do with the whole conversation.
And I don't know what 'out of the normal designed voltage variance' you mean. Since automotive (12V) caps always are rated up to 16V.

I really don't know what to make of this conversation...
I think we are all here to learn from one another and our individual experiences, some of us have very specific experiences. The two links in my post #90 were to educate you on the whys and what for you observe the voltages vastly varying by design! From a possible low of 11V to 15.5... it happens that way by design NOT transients. Attempting to stabilize those design variations may come at the negative affect of loss of stability because the circuit was never designed to work with Mega farad capacitors but what the heck... try it and report back how it goes for you.:popblood:
 

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Let me call out bull on this response!
No way a Capacitor causes 'voltage oscillations', if anything it avoids it.
And in no way will it affect the 'proper function of the citcuit', if anything, it makes it work much better and secure.
Unless you're installing a bad (broken) cap.
ProDigit... what happen to you? I was looking for an engaged discussion on your further thoughts for a Super/Ultra capacitor battery starter and/or booster!

To help start the discussion here are some basics thoughts which you can pick and choose from where ever you want, the final COST will be the real issue (I don't see the need for a Lithium battery though):


http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1272735

http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/downloads


http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/K2_2_85V_DS_3000619EN_3_.pdf



Six of these K2 puppies wired in series will get you started literally! Note they are rated 3400Farad at 2.85V so that is why they need to be wired in series which this would get you about a 17V capability. With the regular Cruze charge of max 15.5V allowing a little head room. I still question whether the Cruze charging system has been designed well enough to be stable with this amount of capacitance, note the voltage should still vary as the system detects the changes but probably at a slower rate of change. Who knows it might even save on fuel just like the alternator regen claim is to save 10 miles per full tank of fuel.



There are several other things you need to worry about... balancing the voltage equally across each of the capacitors for best storage and so that a single capacitor does not receive greater then it rated voltage, you can buy per-assembled circuits for doing this about $68.

http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/Integration Kit_User Manual_1011158_6.pdf


Then one needs to consider housing/packaging, and lastly the initial capacitor bank charge. Theoretically you will start out at about 0V charge when you receive them. If connected directly to a voltage source these capacitors will appear as a direct short (1.2milli ohms), not good! You will need to give them a limited voltage and current to start with i.e. using a headlamp in series with the voltage source until they reach about an 8V charge from there you should be able to connect to a battery charger till fully charged. This is not every detail but certainly enough to get started if you choose to take this mission? Note this is an experiment for the experienced ONLY and the total storage charge can be hazardous!! Once fully charged max short circuit current has the potential for 10,000 Amps... yes those are AMPs not milliamps !!!

Other considerations: the rated capacitor operating temperature is max'd at 65C which is lower then most engine compartments esp if one lives in the Phoenix area. For temperature reasons these would be better suited for mounting like they do for the battery on my '05 Bonn GXP, under the rear passenger seat. Note that AGM batteries are rate for about 50C so in that respect the caps have a little advantage.

There are many youtube videos for this type of science project if you are up to the challenge? Note this is not a proven experiment nor suggestion and one should proceed at their own risk and peril !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb8T-TqvNVE


One most certainly needs to understand basic electrical design principals due to the extremely high current storage capabilities!
 

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ProDigit... what happen to you? I was looking for an engaged discussion on your further thoughts for a Super/Ultra capacitor battery starter and/or booster!

To help start the discussion here are some basics thoughts which you can pick and choose from where ever you want, the final COST will be the real issue (I don't see the need for a Lithium battery though):


How to size ultracapacitors | EE Times

Maxwell Technologies Ultracapacitors and Supercapacitors as a green, alternative energy resource


http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/K2_2_85V_DS_3000619EN_3_.pdf



Six of these K2 puppies wired in series will get you started literally! Note they are rated 3400Farad at 2.85V so that is why they need to be wired in series which this would get you about a 17V capability. With the regular Cruze charge of max 15.5V allowing a little head room. I still question whether the Cruze charging system has been designed well enough to be stable with this amount of capacitance, note the voltage should still vary as the system detects the changes but probably at a slower rate of change. Who knows it might even save on fuel just like the alternator regen claim is to save 10 miles per full tank of fuel.



There are several other things you need to worry about... balancing the voltage equally across each of the capacitors for best storage and so that a single capacitor does not receive greater then it rated voltage, you can buy per-assembled circuits for doing this about $68.

http://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/Integration Kit_User Manual_1011158_6.pdf


Then one needs to consider housing/packaging, and lastly the initial capacitor bank charge. Theoretically you will start out at about 0V charge when you receive them. If connected directly to a voltage source these capacitors will appear as a direct short (1.2milli ohms), not good! You will need to give them a limited voltage and current to start with i.e. using a headlamp in series with the voltage source until they reach about an 8V charge from there you should be able to connect to a battery charger till fully charged. This is not every detail but certainly enough to get started if you choose to take this mission? Note this is an experiment for the experienced ONLY and the total storage charge can be hazardous!! Once fully charged max short circuit current has the potential for 10,000 Amps... yes those are AMPs not milliamps !!!

Other considerations: the rated capacitor operating temperature is max'd at 65C which is lower then most engine compartments esp if one lives in the Phoenix area. For temperature reasons these would be better suited for mounting like they do for the battery on my '05 Bonn GXP, under the rear passenger seat. Note that AGM batteries are rate for about 50C so in that respect the caps have a little advantage.

There are many youtube videos for this type of science project if you are up to the challenge? Note this is not a proven experiment nor suggestion and one should proceed at their own risk and peril !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb8T-TqvNVE


One most certainly needs to understand basic electrical design principals due to the extremely high current storage capabilities!
Still pondering the Lithium battery/Ultra capacitor hybrid approach and whether this makes sense as a cost effective automotive starter battery? LI-PO for small size, high density, and less weight along with an Ultra CAP as an alternative solution for flooded cell or AGM battery. I don't know... maybe a Tech obsessive, complex and very costly solution for an otherwise simple low cost solution (AGM/Flooded cell)?
Interesting Science project though! :dazed052::th_dblthumb2:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/417053/a-battery-ultracapacitor-hybrid/

https://www.bioennopower.com/phttp://www.pe.org.pl/articles/2012/4b/29.pdfages/hybrid-supercapacitor-battery

The case for ultra capacitor/battery hybrids:

http://www.pe.org.pl/articles/2012/4b/29.pdf
 

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Still working on this capacitor "thing" which ProDigit originally brought up a couple posts back.

World highest level super-capacitor successfully created by CRRC ZELC_Home_CRRC ZHUZHOU LOCOMOTIVE CO., LTD.

China's first home-made supercapacitor tram unveiled - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Maxwell and CRRC to develop rail transit supercapacitors

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/asia/crrc-zhuzhou-wins-malaysian-emu-order.html

http://www.electronicdesign.com/power/can-supercapacitors-surpass-batteries-energy-storage

Forget diesel and gasoline powered cars I'm ready for a Bolt powered by supercapacitors!!
:tongue4::3tens:

Where is the gen 3 Tesla powered with the "flux" capacitor drive from Dr. Emmett Brown's DeLorean... I'm off to "Back to the Future!:eek:fftopic:
 
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