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Well, I had the CID in Thursday for the Nox1 sensor replacement and Regen
before going in I had the 'Poor DEF' warning and the 'P249D' -reductant injector control
I won't go into a rant about the 'Service cloud' the dealerships have placed between the customer (-me) and the mechanic (-guy I'm paying to fix the car)
-The sensor replaced, took 3 tries to get a regen to complete, it kept kicking the mechanic out ( said the cloud).
-Your car is ready sir, oh, the mechanic suggested driving the car to clear the 'Poor DEF' alarm.
-on the way home scan-guage RGN posting 0 for 10 seconds then alternating 1 for 10. hmmmm
-finally 2 RGN
-Still 'Poor DEF' warning..going to 80km -with warning it will go to 6km in short order
-on the way home stopped for alcohol (to go) to wash away 'Service Cloud' taste
-take dog for drive 20km -no change
-call 'Service Cloud' Still 'Poor DEF' need car for Monday
-take it back to dealership, leave it overnight
-pickup Friday no 'Poor DEF' warning
-'Service Cloud' upset it took 3 regens to clear alarm
-paid 'Service Cloud' $242 the cost of the regen on Friday...
Went home washed away 'Service Cloud' feeling...
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
They had to drive mine 50 miles to clear the "Poor DEF" warning. Those were the instructions they received from TAC. So far so good after that. They delivered me a car with no warnings, as they should have.
@Louis, that regen should have been covered by the recall, I think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
A quick 400 mile trip around the block today and all is still well. :)
 
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Finally got the diagnosis - DEF reductant tank reservoir heater needs to be replaced. I thought that might be it, but odd no CEL.
I know I'm way late to the party on this one, but I had that same repair. I didn't get the DEF light, but I certainly got the CEL. Strange thing is, I never got a reduced speed message. I drove with the bad tank heater for almost 2 months before it was repaired; and this was when I was putting 25k miles on the car a year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I know I'm way late to the party on this one, but I had that same repair. I didn't get the DEF light, but I certainly got the CEL. Strange thing is, I never got a reduced speed message. I drove with the bad tank heater for almost 2 months before it was repaired; and this was when I was putting 25k miles on the car a year.
It seems as if there are very inconsistent symptoms, all for the same issue. I think I am the only one that didn't get a CEL, but I'm pretty sure everybody else got the reduced speed message.
 
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DEF quality poor no CEL. Recall?

It seems as if there are very inconsistent symptoms, all for the same issue. I think I am the only one that didn't get a CEL, but I'm pretty sure everybody else got the reduced speed message.
A couple of years ago I had this warning with no CEL ( I had already been thru the failed heater prob, couldn't get one so took it to the dealer where they could get one next day, they told me they swapped out the reservoir but they just unplugged and swapped out he drop in part, I learned long ago to sharpie the parts before they SAY they replace them). I wasn't aware of shelf life considerations on the DEF. I googled the way to decipher the Peak DEF fluid code so I was sure to get the newest I could then siphoned out the existing fluid and replaced with new. warning went away and didn't return for a long time.

Fast forward to one month ago I get the poor def warning and the subsequent countdown, no code. I always get newest fluid I can, usually at local farm store. I topped it off with about 2 gallons of Peak DEF with Date code representing mid November, so really fresh. Warning went away immediately. 2 weeks later warning returned. I siphoned all of it out and replaced with the fresh and warning goes away immediately.

Now, 2 weeks later, warning is back, no CEL. we are at 98K on the odometer. Could my problem have any thing to do with the recent sensor and regen letters we received? I don't recall ever seeing any notification about a regen running, never inquired at dealer about one. I have had bad luck with dealer for problem diagnosis and paying for unnecessary parts before. I really hate to go there for anything. If I need to go I will find a different one.
 

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A couple of years ago I had this warning with no CEL ( I had already been thru the failed heater prob, couldn't get one so took it to the dealer where they could get one next day, they told me they swapped out the reservoir but they just unplugged and swapped out he drop in part, I learned long ago to sharpie the parts before they SAY they replace them). I wasn't aware of shelf life considerations on the DEF. I googled the way to decipher the Peak DEF fluid code so I was sure to get the newest I could then siphoned out the existing fluid and replaced with new. warning went away and didn't return for a long time.

Fast forward to one month ago I get the poor def warning and the subsequent countdown, no code. I always get newest fluid I can, usually at local farm store. I topped it off with about 2 gallons of Peak DEF with Date code representing mid November, so really fresh. Warning went away immediately. 2 weeks later warning returned. I siphoned all of it out and replaced with the fresh and warning goes away immediately.

Now, 2 weeks later, warning is back, no CEL. we are at 98K on the odometer. Could my problem have any thing to do with the recent sensor and regen letters we received? I don't recall ever seeing any notification about a regen running, never inquired at dealer about one. I have had bad luck with dealer for problem diagnosis and paying for unnecessary parts before. I really hate to go there for anything. If I need to go I will find a different one.
Sounds like it could be the DEF heater issue, it has a private letter good for free replacement if you are having the issues you are having, they should replace the def heater and whatever goes with it for free, it was 10 years and or 120k miles as I recall. Take it to a dealer that knows what they are doing and services diesels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Last time the DEF heater failed I had a code that identified it. Is there a chance the dealer would replace it with no code, just symptoms?
That's what my dealer did. They were still able to diagnose the problem with no CEL. I've gone at least 2500 miles since then with no further issues, and I never changed the fluid either. Mine was not covered under warranty since I was out by 70K miles.
 
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no codes. limited to 65MPH. Took it in with the recall letter for NOX 1 sensor/ECM update/regen. figured that may get rid of the "Diesel exhaust fluid poor quality" warning and limp mode. no luck. still had the same warning. sat in the dealership for 7 hours, no progress, no codes. Left it there over the weekend.

This am they called me and said they determined that the problem was with NOX 2 sensor. Still no codes. They could change that for > $900. That amounts $500 for the sensor and 3 hrs labor. They recommended flushing the trans and cleaning the battery terminals also but that would run me about $1300 all together.

I am infuriated. took a number and told em I would call back. been steamed all day. I can't see how they can quote 3 hrs labor for a NOX sensor that is sticking right out at you. unless they are charging for time spent guessing at why the recall work didn't get it out of limp mode. ARGH! Probably another part I am unable to readily buy outside of the dealer like that DEF tank heater.
 

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no codes. limited to 65MPH. Took it in with the recall letter for NOX 1 sensor/ECM update/regen. figured that may get rid of the "Diesel exhaust fluid poor quality" warning and limp mode. no luck. still had the same warning. sat in the dealership for 7 hours, no progress, no codes. Left it there over the weekend.

This am they called me and said they determined that the problem was with NOX 2 sensor. Still no codes. They could change that for > $900. That amounts $500 for the sensor and 3 hrs labor. They recommended flushing the trans and cleaning the battery terminals also but that would run me about $1300 all together.

I am infuriated. took a number and told em I would call back. been steamed all day. I can't see how they can quote 3 hrs labor for a NOX sensor that is sticking right out at you. unless they are charging for time spent guessing at why the recall work didn't get it out of limp mode. ARGH! Probably another part I am unable to readily buy outside of the dealer like that DEF tank heater.
Online the nox sensor is about 230, I would consider doing it myself. Sounds like they are not being fair on price in my view, I think GM has a screwed up emission system that is too darn expensive to fix out of warranty.
 
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Online the nox sensor is about 230, I would consider doing it myself. Sounds like they are not being fair on price in my view, I think GM has a screwed up emission system that is too darn expensive to fix out of warranty.
I hope I can get the car out of there without them charging me for diagnosing the problem. I need to drive it about 45 miles home at 55MPH I don't even know how far the car will let me go at that speed. Plus, if I obtain the sensor online and I'm still in limp mode???

Is there truth to there being a possibility of getting rid of the DEF system and re programming the ECM to run without it?

Outside of the DEF issues and always paying to be part of the dealership's learning curve I'm very happy with the car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
I hope I can get the car out of there without them charging me for diagnosing the problem. I need to drive it about 45 miles home at 55MPH I don't even know how far the car will let me go at that speed. Plus, if I obtain the sensor online and I'm still in limp mode???

Is there truth to there being a possibility of getting rid of the DEF system and re programming the ECM to run without it?

Outside of the DEF issues and always paying to be part of the dealership's learning curve I'm very happy with the car.
The speed limit/poor DEF quality issue is extremely likely the DEF heater. They are apparently not doing a good job of diagnosing it. That repair is covered under a 10 year 120K mile extended warranty. I am 99% sure that's what the issue with your car is. My dealer was able to diagnose without a CEL present.

The NOx sensors do NOT contribute to a speed limit message, based on all the info I've gathered, and 4,000 miles on my car with an on-and-off P11DC (NOx #2) CEL.
 

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The speed limit/poor DEF quality issue is extremely likely the DEF heater. They are apparently not doing a good job of diagnosing it. That repair is covered under a 10 year 120K mile extended warranty. I am 99% sure that's what the issue with your car is. My dealer was able to diagnose without a CEL present.

The NOx sensors do NOT contribute to a speed limit message, based on all the info I've gathered, and 4,000 miles on my car with an on-and-off P11DC (NOx #2) CEL.
if this dealer misdiagnosed the issue which is a definite possibility, how are they going to put this emission system or something similiar to it with the gen 2 ctd in so many cars, the dealers don't seem well trained on this system across all dealers. Very disappointing to be honest.
 

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Thanks for the responses guys. I like to fix and maintain my one vehicles. I am pretty frustrated that if I am resigned to take it in to the dealership they just guess and throw parts at it, too.

They told me they drove the car with a laptop hooked up and another tech watching readings and figured the Nox 2 was the problem. I asked why there was no code. They don't know.

While I was there waiting the other day I submitted the request for reimbursement on the last DEF heater. The record of their diagnosis of that one noted that the ohms for the heating element were off. I think I need to go there and move the crap out of the trunk and ask them to check that again. Especially if a bad DEF heater can put it in limp mode and the NOX 2 sensor can't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Thanks for the responses guys. I like to fix and maintain my one vehicles. I am pretty frustrated that if I am resigned to take it in to the dealership they just guess and throw parts at it, too.

They told me they drove the car with a laptop hooked up and another tech watching readings and figured the Nox 2 was the problem. I asked why there was no code. They don't know.

While I was there waiting the other day I submitted the request for reimbursement on the last DEF heater. The record of their diagnosis of that one noted that the ohms for the heating element were off. I think I need to go there and move the crap out of the trunk and ask them to check that again. Especially if a bad DEF heater can put it in limp mode and the NOX 2 sensor can't.
Good luck with everything, it sounds extremely frustrating.
 

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OK.. just an update. Limped it to the dealership. 12 miles from the 55 MPH limit. They swapped out the nox #1 sensor, reflash, and did the regen on the recall. Still wouldn't come out of limp mode, wouldn't pass DEF quality test. And, still no codes.

Two of the guys took it for a spin with the laptop and saw that nox #2 was not working. Service quoted me $1300 to replace that and do the suggested radiator and trans fluid flush, only about $900 just to do the nox sensor only (that was 3 hrs labor). I waited a couple of days so I could call and speak to them without yelling.

I was just going to go get it and order the sensor online. But, they backed off of their list price on the part to $350 and I OK'd 2 hrs labor. So $600 plus tax and we're down the road.

The dealer is 45 mi away so that was a factor. If I paid $125 for 1 hr diagnosis and swapped it out at home and that fixed it and cleared the warning out I'd be good. But if they needed to do something for it to do the DEF quality test then I'd need to bring it back. I didn't know if the "DEF quality test" is just part of normal operation of the motor or if it was initiated by them. They implied I'd still need to bring it back after I changed it myself. I know this is not always the case and I'm sure they don't know if I'd need to bring it back either.
 
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