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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I don't want to get into a discussion about which brakeing system stops the best. The simple fact is only cars with drum rear brakes seem to constantly have park brake issues. So why would you put 2 different types of parts on basically the same car? Other countries use the all disc system exclusively and have no park brake issues. If the park brake is out so is the foot brake and this is not good. Women, who are usually not mechanically minded drive these cars and could get into trouble if they don't notice the leaver getting higher, some guys as well. Please for peace of mind make the best possible available reliable braking system standard for all models.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I hope to see this change on the next generation cruze, however then what reason do they have besides leather to charge thousands more for a 2LT or LTZ?
If that is the only reason to charge more for a car then shame on GM for putting safety at a cost to make more profit. Have a look at the Holden website and see what different prices get you in your Cruze, 4 engine choices, 3 body styles and several trim levels. All have disc brakes and the Diesel and the 1.6T SRI models have bigger ones. Not a single consistent park brake problem among them. Oh by the way it is a GM company, wouldn't you think they would offer US citizens the best?
 

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If that is the only reason to charge more for a car then shame on GM for putting safety at a cost to make more profit. Have a look at the Holden website and see what different prices get you in your Cruze, 4 engine choices, 3 body styles and several trim levels. All have disc brakes and the Diesel and the 1.6T SRI models have bigger ones. Not a single consistent park brake problem among them. Oh by the way it is a GM company, wouldn't you think they would offer US citizens the best?
With so many options I wonder, what does the competition offer? Here most car company's only offer two engine choices..... guess they don't want to confuse us dumb Americans. Yet somehow with the cruze they did, try explaining to a car novice the 1.4T is better than a 1.8L, that's the exact opposite of what we have been told for years(bigger engines are better).

We do have a few cruze models here(LS, 1LT, ECO, 2LT, LTZ), however every model has a 1.4T except the LS, it has the 1.8L. The diesel is a special 2LT model. When I bought my cruze option for option my 1LT I could get 99% of what an 2LT or LTZ had, for $3,000-$4,000 less. Only things the LTZ had I didn't get, leather, 18in wheels(mine are 16in), sport tuned suspension, remote access/push button start, and rear discs.
The ECO model was more interesting than the LTZ to me, but decided to not spend the $1200 extra for aerodynamic mods. I opted for the $795 RS package since it came with fog lights, with all other models you needed to install yourself or pay the dealer almost $500(RS package is available on 1LT, 2LT and LTZ).
 

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Hate to be an oddball, but I am, would much prefer if my 2LT had drums on the rear, far cheaper to repair and work just as well.

How about having to lay out 240-600 bucks for two new disk calipers, even if you have the brains and tools to repair them, won't sell you any replacement parts, and they become a pile of rust. Then with drums, have a much greater surface area for positive parking.

Just checked the rear drums, well 18 months ago on my 04 Caviliar before turning it over to my stepdaughter. Still original, just needed some cleaning and lubrication with practically no shoe wear. You do need some brains as to how to adjust them however. Still only six inches on the parking brake.

With the disks, wife still asks why I work the parking brake level at a traffic light. Forgets, feel the service brake pedal getting a bit low. With drums, this is done for you whenever you back up. And if you need new cylinders, only around ten bucks.

Most ideal would be calipers for the service and shoes for the parking brakes. Supra has those, shoes for parking never wear out, only use those for parking. And the calipers are inherently self adjusting. None of that ratcheting stuff that binds up.

And whoever said, salt saves lives, have a ten foot pole I would love to jam up someplace. And very few professional mechanics don't even know how to do a proper brake job let alone do an oil change. So if you want it done right, have to do it yourself.
 

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Copied from edmunds.com

http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cruze/2013/

In Edmunds brake testing, a Cruze LTZ stopped from 60 mph in 122 feet, a slightly better-than-average distance for this class of car. Even with its fuel-economy-friendly tires, the Cruze Eco stopped in just about the same distance.

Eco also has "drums" and "eco tires".

IMO this is not a safety issue...
This is more of a my car doesn't look as cool as yours because I have drums :/



Sent from AutoGuide.com App
 

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To me this is a "I'm a self entitled person who feels I should be able to tell companies what products they should sell me with something other than my wallet" mentality.

Don't like drum brakes? Don't buy a car with drum brakes. I had zero stopping issues on my Eco with drum brakes. Yeah I'd have preferred discs. But I don't think I have the right to tell a company what they should be able to sell. If I don't like what they sell, I just won't buy it. Pure and simple.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Most ideal would be calipers for the service and shoes for the parking brakes. Supra has those, shoes for parking never wear out, only use those for parking. And the calipers are inherently self adjusting. None of that ratcheting stuff that binds up.

And whoever said, salt saves lives, have a ten foot pole I would love to jam up someplace. And very few professional mechanics don't even know how to do a proper brake job let alone do an oil change. So if you want it done right, have to do it yourself.
This is what my 1999 Holden Commodore had, and after 13 years and 250,000km park brake was original and so were rear rotors. Front rotors were replaced at about 200,000km (warped). New pads about every 3 years or so front and every 5 years rear. Pads cost $22 rear $24 front all four could be changed using standard jack in less than an hour. Salt is not an issue anywhere in Australia, not even in snowy areas.
 

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Drums are better for fuel economy (less friction when not in use), last forever, and are dirt cheap to repair.

In a non-performance application, they are not a bad choice.
 

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I/members of my family have had cars with drum brakes for YEARS, and the only problems have been with sticking disc calipers on the front and/or 4-wheel disc cars.

One of these cars is going on 12 years old and never had a brake problem; the other, 40 and has needed rebuilt calipers several times in its life while the drums have needed basically nothing. The 4-wheel disc cars haven't been nearly as problem-free.

They stop fine, and the parking brakes work fine (if adjusted). In fact, many of the 4-wheel disc cars have drum parking brakes built into the rear discs as a fail-safe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
My original point was that mechanically poor drivers seem to have park brake issues which means the foot brake is not as efficient as it should be, therefore not as safe. It is all well and good to have air bags everywhere but avoiding an accident in the first place is also important. I know lots of people on this forum are quite capable of getting good performance from drum brakes, but what about school kids and younger drivers who aren't as capable, surely they need to be as safe as possible?
 

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My original point was that mechanically poor drivers seem to have park brake issues which means the foot brake is not as efficient as it should be, therefore not as safe. It is all well and good to have air bags everywhere but avoiding an accident in the first place is also important. I know lots of people on this forum are quite capable of getting good performance from drum brakes, but what about school kids and younger drivers who aren't as capable, surely they need to be as safe as possible?
The rear brakes provide very little of your stopping power (just like a bike). The rear drums do work, even if misadjusted though - the pedal travel will just be a little further.

Even driving my Cruze with 1000 miles, before I knew about adjusting the drums, I had to do a panic stop in traffic. Stomp that brake pedal and all 4 brakes work just fine and it stops in a helluva hurry. I've repeated that same kind of panic stop a few times and avoided accidents that others in front of me couldn't.
 

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My original point was that mechanically poor drivers seem to have park brake issues which means the foot brake is not as efficient as it should be, therefore not as safe. It is all well and good to have air bags everywhere but avoiding an accident in the first place is also important. I know lots of people on this forum are quite capable of getting good performance from drum brakes, but what about school kids and younger drivers who aren't as capable, surely they need to be as safe as possible?
This isn't because the rear brake are drums. It's because they aren't being adjusted properly when leaving the factory. I've had cars with both drums and all wheel disc brakes. Drums catch faster when wet. Disc brakes do tend to resist brake fade better when repeatedly used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
This isn't because the rear brake are drums. It's because they aren't being adjusted properly when leaving the factory. I've had cars with both drums and all wheel disc brakes. Drums catch faster when wet. Disc brakes do tend to resist brake fade better when repeatedly used.
If that is the case why are there disc brakes on the front at all. I have owned all drum cars and what you call "catch" we used to call "grab" as all 4 wheels got grabby on wet roads and if you went through deep water the brakes just went away. You are only being protected from rear wheel lock up by the ABS in the wet. I have a second car with disc front and drum rear and no ABS and in normal wet driving it is no different to dry driving. I haven't driven it in deep water but I know the rear brakes would fill with water and take a while to dry out as other cars i have owned did this.

I think I worded my original post badly as I meant it as a suggestion only, please forgive my foot in mouth moment.
 

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If that is the case why are there disc brakes on the front at all. I have owned all drum cars and what you call "catch" we used to call "grab" as all 4 wheels got grabby on wet roads and if you went through deep water the brakes just went away. You are only being protected from rear wheel lock up by the ABS in the wet. I have a second car with disc front and drum rear and no ABS and in normal wet driving it is no different to dry driving. I haven't driven it in deep water but I know the rear brakes would fill with water and take a while to dry out as other cars i have owned did this.
With all around drums you would get a quicker grab in the wet, but brake fade would be far more dangerous. All our disc results in a slower wet brake grab but for long and repeated stops you won't get as much brake fade. By putting discs on the front and drums on the rear you get the quicker initial grab in the wet and a more brake fade resistant with long and repeated braking actions - the best of both worlds while minimizing the worst of both.

I can see deep water causing problems with "internal" drums where the pad presses against the inside of the drum. There is no place for the water to go so it just sits on the drum's contact surface. For external drums it shouldn't be an issue because the water is flung off the contact surface while the drum spins with the wheel. GM North America has used external drums since at least the 1990 model year on some of their vehicles.

Tow vehicles should have disc brakes all the way around for the simple fact that the rear wheels of a tow vehicle are effectively the front wheels of the trailer. Most trailers don't have brakes of any sort so the tow vehicle needs to have the most brake fade resistant brakes possible.

I think I worded my original post badly as I meant it as a suggestion only, please forgive my foot in mouth moment.
Not a problem. You started a good discussion on the differences between drum and disc brakes.
 

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Good luck with that, it has purely to do with dollars and cents. Drums are cheaper so they go on the budget cars/trucks. And on almost every new car out there the parking brake is a drum brake inside the rotor so i don't see what you are really gaining. You still have drum brakes for the parking brake. Most issues people have with drum brakes is they never adjust them as they wear out so you go to pull the parking brake and you don't make good contact between the shoes and the drums.
 

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If the park brake is out so is the foot brake and this is not good.
This is a completely false statement. The foot brake and parking brake are actuated completely differently. The park brake is mechanical and controlled with springs and cables, the foot brake is hydraulic. You can cut the parking brake cables off and it won't affect your foot brake one bit.
 

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i will say this, i do have plans to upgrade to disc, but not becuase i feel that the drum brakes are bad... on the contrary, these brakes STOP THE CAR. i have been 3 situations where the brakes performed well beyond what was expected... one was 45-0 on a down hill in about 2 car lengths ( a bit under). another was wet roads from 35-0 in 1.5 car lengths ( no skidding at all).

personally i like my rear drums, they just tend to fade a bit when i drive because i live on a mountian so they do not cool as fast as disc, but still they perform great.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This is a completely false statement. The foot brake and parking brake are actuated completely differently. The park brake is mechanical and controlled with springs and cables, the foot brake is hydraulic. You can cut the parking brake cables off and it won't affect your foot brake one bit.
Cutting the cable is a completely different problem to brake shoes needing adjustment. When the park brake lever gets high adjusting the shoes brings it down again, thus they are connected from a wear point of view. If the leaver is high the shoes are out thus affecting brake performance. How much braking does the rear do when car is filled to capacity? 20% has to be a guess and only for a driver only car.

If you want to find out the difference the rear brakes make try backing them off all the way and drive on a dirt road, I have had this happen to me and I had to pull the park brake up before applying the foot brake as without this the front wheels just locked up and no stopping or steering worked, really scary at the time. ABS would help but not much.
 
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The simple fact is only cars with drum rear brakes seem to constantly have park brake issues.
Completely opposite of what many see in the northern US states. Rear disc brakes make mechanics LOTS of money in repair work.

So I call your "fact" to be just anecdotal evidence.

Class 8 road tractors weighting in at 160,000+lbs still use all wheel drum brakes.

GM in recent years past has removed disc brakes from the rear of trucks and went back to drums due to rust/corrosion problems.

Drum brakes using the actual service linings for the parking brake have more stopping power than a disc with small internal parking shoe, comparing only parking brake function.
 
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