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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just poking around for opinions and ideas from the great resources of this board.
Here's what I've accumulated so far for a good SQ system:
- New Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit (5v Pre-outs; great SQ; plan on running it in network mode for high, mid, and low).
- JL HD900/5 amp (100 x 4, 500 x 1; <.03 THD @ 4 ohm).
- Orion HCCA 250 amp (3rd Gen old school "Pop Top"; cheater amp capable of 800w bridged).
- Polk MM6501 6-1/2" component speakers for front doors (125w continuous; 250w peak).
- (1) JL 10W6v2-D4 sub (600w RMS; dual 4-ohm VC)

I don't know if I'm too crazy about the single 10" sub; it just didn't have the punch I was looking for. It's mounted in a sealed box at exactly the dimensions that JL put in their instructions. And yes, I've learned now after reading a lot on this web board on who to consult about a box design.

Thoughts on the selected products and / or recommendations on what to add to make this a great system, and / or tips & tricks from lessons learned?

Thanks
 

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Just poking around for opinions and ideas from the great resources of this board.
Here's what I've accumulated so far for a good SQ system:
- New Pioneer DEH-80PRS head unit (5v Pre-outs; great SQ; plan on running it in network mode for high, mid, and low).
- JL HD900/5 amp (100 x 4, 500 x 1; <.03 THD @ 4 ohm).
- Orion HCCA 250 amp (3rd Gen old school "Pop Top"; cheater amp capable of 800w bridged).
- Polk MM6501 6-1/2" component speakers for front doors (125w continuous; 250w peak).
- (1) JL 10W6v2-D4 sub (600w RMS; dual 4-ohm VC)

I don't know if I'm too crazy about the single 10" sub; it just didn't have the punch I was looking for. It's mounted in a sealed box at exactly the dimensions that JL put in their instructions. And yes, I've learned now after reading a lot on this web board on who to consult about a box design.

Thoughts on the selected products and / or recommendations on what to add to make this a great system, and / or tips & tricks from lessons learned?

Thanks
Good head unit, but for the price with the components you chose, you'd get much better sound with a miniDSP and a different set of drivers. Just being honest here. The only advantage to using a head-unit based DSP/crossover is ease of tuning, at a cost of many disadvantages.

JL boxes are heavily undersized. JL subs are heavily overrated. Not SQ subs at all IMO and a poor value.



Sent from my SGH-T999 using AutoGuide App
 

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Are you planning on running the rears still? Unless you have passengers in the rear frequently, I would suggest against it. It will detract from your front soundstage, making tuning much more difficult. In addition, you would be able to eliminate the second amp and save money and complexity with your install.

The headunit and JL amp are both great products. You will be happy with them. John Myers won a few world championships using JL HD amps.

While the W6 is a great sub, it loses much of its appeal when you look at what else you can get for the same price.
I would swap it out for a pair of IDQ's. If it is already in your head that it doesn't hit hard enough, chances are you will end up being dissatisfied when you put it it. Do it right the first time and don't slack on the cone area.
A pair of IDQ's will hit hard and still sound great in a reasonable enclosure.

I won't comment on the Polk because I have never heard them. What I will say though is that if you are going to break the bank on something, your front soundstage is where you want to do it.

Definitely a good start with everything though!

Don't forget to plan for all the little things....they really add up.

-mounting kit
-wiring harness
-antenna adaptor
-deadening material
-wiring
-rca's
-fusing
-terminals/connections
-distribution block (if multiple amps)
-MDF

etc.
 

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I'm personally looking at the Image Dynamics brands as opposed to JL as well. It seems that it's just a better spend overall in the SQ realm of car audio.
 

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I'm personally looking at the Image Dynamics brands as opposed to JL as well. It seems that it's just a better spend overall in the SQ realm of car audio.
Agreed.

It's a much better value from all aspects. Same or higher power handling, lower moving mass, higher excursion, and they sound great in smaller boxes.

I hate to sound like an ID fanboy, but JL has nothing on them. On that note, few subs come close in the $200-250 price point.

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I think your system would sound great with those pieces. I have those same polk components up front, they fit in place of the stock speakers. I had to sand the outside of the tweaters a liitle to fit but it was no big deal. I also have the JL 10" sub in a sealed box. I went with a Sony touch screen deck and Alpine amp but still very simular. The front stage is very clean, powerful and sounds awesome. I have the gain turned fairly low on the sub and it still rocks plenty hard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
@ExtremeRevolution: Thanks for the honesty; it's exactly what I was hoping for. I have much respect for your opinion and skill, and that's why I posted in this forum. I researched the MiniDSP before I purchased the DEH-80PRS, but all in all, I chose the head unit for the capability to change settings on the fly. I listen to many different types of music, so I anticipate changes depending upon each album or song. As for the sub(s), I'm ditching (selling) the JL W6 and will try out the ID12. Question is: IDQ or IDMax? Single 12" or dual 10"? I'd like to consult your expertise when it comes to building a new box. I have the tools and wood; I just need some design help. I like the JL HD amp, but I love the clean power of the Orion HCCA. I know the Orion will push more than the JL. It's rough, because I'm trying to use some of the same major-cost items from past builds. The more I spend on other components, the more I piss off my wife. Lol.

@jstoner22: I don't plan on installing anything in the rear doors or rear deck. I'd like to try and focus on the front stage and sub(s). I've traditionally done the full front and rear experience, but I'm open to new things. I'm going to try and retain the Polk MMs - unless I can't make them work with this design. As for the additional items:
- I have the mounting kit coming (Metra).
- I have the GMOS-044 ready to go in.
- Which antenna adapter does this car need? I see multiple options.
- I'd like to go with ExtremeRevolution's recommendations on the front doors and trunk area. After seeing his write-ups, I'm sold!
- I'll be probably doing 4GA power & ground, 8GA for sub, and 12GA or 14GA to speakers.
- RCAs on hand right now are JL Blue Interconnects, but I'm not sure if I'll be using them. It depends on where I mount the amp(s), and if they're long enough.
- I have to get all new fusing, distribution blocks, and possibly a capacitor. I let all that go with my last car.

Thanks again, guys. It's good to go over these things with others like you.
 

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@ExtremeRevolution: Thanks for the honesty; it's exactly what I was hoping for. I have much respect for your opinion and skill, and that's why I posted in this forum. I researched the MiniDSP before I purchased the DEH-80PRS, but all in all, I chose the head unit for the capability to change settings on the fly. I listen to many different types of music, so I anticipate changes depending upon each album or song. As for the sub(s), I'm ditching (selling) the JL W6 and will try out the ID12. Question is: IDQ or IDMax? Single 12" or dual 10"? I'd like to consult your expertise when it comes to building a new box. I have the tools and wood; I just need some design help. I like the JL HD amp, but I love the clean power of the Orion HCCA. I know the Orion will push more than the JL. It's rough, because I'm trying to use some of the same major-cost items from past builds. The more I spend on other components, the more I piss off my wife. Lol.

@jstoner22: I don't plan on installing anything in the rear doors or rear deck. I'd like to try and focus on the front stage and sub(s). I've traditionally done the full front and rear experience, but I'm open to new things. I'm going to try and retain the Polk MMs - unless I can't make them work with this design. As for the additional items:
- I have the mounting kit coming (Metra).
- I have the GMOS-044 ready to go in.
- Which antenna adapter does this car need? I see multiple options.
- I'd like to go with ExtremeRevolution's recommendations on the front doors and trunk area. After seeing his write-ups, I'm sold!
- I'll be probably doing 4GA power & ground, 8GA for sub, and 12GA or 14GA to speakers.
- RCAs on hand right now are JL Blue Interconnects, but I'm not sure if I'll be using them. It depends on where I mount the amp(s), and if they're long enough.
- I have to get all new fusing, distribution blocks, and possibly a capacitor. I let all that go with my last car.

Thanks again, guys. It's good to go over these things with others like you.
Just one thing you want to keep in mind: if your recordings are decent (not heavily compressed files, and quality recordings), and if you've tuned the system well from the start, you won't need to fiddle with settings every time you change your song or genre. If you have a sound system that requires you to do that, then you have either very poor quality speakers that are producing listening fatigue, distortion, and severe frequency response anomalies in unwanted places, or you have a bad tune. The idea behind the miniDSP is that you can get rid of very specific anomalies using the 18-band parametric equalizer, and you can lift your sound stage by allowing you to cross much lower than you would with the slopes that a Pioneer head unit would give you, which further improves your sound quality and allows you to cross out of the harsh top end of most midbass drivers.

I'm not the kind of guy who believes that the ability to change settings on the fly is far more important than greater tuning ability and improve sound stage, so that's my reasoning behind the recommendation.

As for the Image Dynamics drivers, buy what you can afford. The IDMax drivers are more expensive, but far more powerful and have significantly higher output. Their greatest strength is the ability to produce a LOT of sound in a very little box, and you pay a considerable amount to get that reduced space requirement. They do require about 1000W RMS of power, so keep that in mind. The IDQ drivers require less power. Now, there are "ID12" drivers, which are a budget line, and I would not recommend them for SQ use.

Can you confirm that your amplifier does produce 800W RMS of power without clipping? At what impedance? Is this a Class AB amp?
 

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@ExtremeRevolution: Thanks for the honesty; it's exactly what I was hoping for. I have much respect for your opinion and skill, and that's why I posted in this forum. I researched the MiniDSP before I purchased the DEH-80PRS, but all in all, I chose the head unit for the capability to change settings on the fly. I listen to many different types of music, so I anticipate changes depending upon each album or song. As for the sub(s), I'm ditching (selling) the JL W6 and will try out the ID12. Question is: IDQ or IDMax? Single 12" or dual 10"? I'd like to consult your expertise when it comes to building a new box. I have the tools and wood; I just need some design help. I like the JL HD amp, but I love the clean power of the Orion HCCA. I know the Orion will push more than the JL. It's rough, because I'm trying to use some of the same major-cost items from past builds. The more I spend on other components, the more I piss off my wife. Lol.

@jstoner22: I don't plan on installing anything in the rear doors or rear deck. I'd like to try and focus on the front stage and sub(s). I've traditionally done the full front and rear experience, but I'm open to new things. I'm going to try and retain the Polk MMs - unless I can't make them work with this design. As for the additional items:
- I have the mounting kit coming (Metra).
- I have the GMOS-044 ready to go in.
- Which antenna adapter does this car need? I see multiple options.
- I'd like to go with ExtremeRevolution's recommendations on the front doors and trunk area. After seeing his write-ups, I'm sold!
- I'll be probably doing 4GA power & ground, 8GA for sub, and 12GA or 14GA to speakers.
- RCAs on hand right now are JL Blue Interconnects, but I'm not sure if I'll be using them. It depends on where I mount the amp(s), and if they're long enough.
- I have to get all new fusing, distribution blocks, and possibly a capacitor. I let all that go with my last car.

Thanks again, guys. It's good to go over these things with others like you.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the Orion a 2 channel?

By using this on your front stage, you will lose the ability to T/A between your woofers and tweeters. These drivers don't require massive amounts of power, and realistically the JL will be able to push just as much during music as the Orion. I would not sacrifice the ability to properly T/A for the Orion.
The JL will be much more efficient, provide more tuning options and is a compact all in one solution.

The IDQ and IDMax are both fantastic choices. You simply need to decide what you want in a subwoofer. The IDMax will retain most of the SQ of the IDQ, but the bit that is sacrifices, it makes up for with volume.
Both work great in smaller enclosures.
Unless you are going dual IDQ's you will most likely be dissapointed with the output. Although they are a better SQ sub than the W6, they will not be any louder.
If you still want a single sub, I'd recommend a ported IDMax.
If you look they pop up every once in a while at decent prices. You should be able to find a new IDMax 200-250 and IDQ around 150.

Also, save your money on the capacitor. It is useless with the JL as it has a fully regulated power supply.

I would also recommend considering a lower gauge wire. Car audio is addictive, and should you ever want to upgrade, you will want bigger than 4 gauge.
 

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As for the Image Dynamics drivers, buy what you can afford. The IDMax drivers are more expensive, but far more powerful and have significantly higher output. Their greatest strength is the ability to produce a LOT of sound in a very little box, and you pay a considerable amount to get that reduced space requirement. They do require about 1000W RMS of power, so keep that in mind. The IDQ drivers require less power. Now, there are "ID12" drivers, which are a budget line, and I would not recommend them for SQ use.

Can you confirm that your amplifier does produce 800W RMS of power without clipping? At what impedance? Is this a Class AB amp?


While rated 200-1000rms, the IDMax definitely do not need 1000watts to reach their potential. I have run them on various amps and levels of impedance over the last few years, and anything 500+ is just fine.




I took it as the Orion was going to be used on the front stage and not the sub.

Can you clarify this OP?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I wasn't considering the Orion for the mids & highs - only the sub(s) in place of the 5th channel on the JL HD900/5.

It looks like I'll be considering a single IDQ 12" for now, with the ability to add another in the future.

As for the Orion power: It's a cheater competition amp. Rating is 50w x 2 @ 4ohm @ 12v. If my calculations are correct, it'll do bridged power @ 14v @ 1/2 ohm load for 800 watts. And I've run it for years at 1/2 ohm with two JL 12W3D2 subs. I'm not certain I'd want to complicate the system, but I don't know if the JL amp has the power to push the IDQ 12 like the Orion would.

Regarding the cap: I had the JL in my last car, and the load was still dimming the lights on heavy notes. I just worry when I add that Orion, it's going to pull a lot of amperage. I plan on going with an Optima yellow top - just like all my cars.
 

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I wasn't considering the Orion for the mids & highs - only the sub(s) in place of the 5th channel on the JL HD900/5.

It looks like I'll be considering a single IDQ 12" for now, with the ability to add another in the future.

As for the Orion power: It's a cheater competition amp. Rating is 50w x 2 @ 4ohm @ 12v. If my calculations are correct, it'll do bridged power @ 14v @ 1/2 ohm load for 800 watts. And I've run it for years at 1/2 ohm with two JL 12W3D2 subs. I'm not certain I'd want to complicate the system, but I don't know if the JL amp has the power to push the IDQ 12 like the Orion would.

Regarding the cap: I had the JL in my last car, and the load was still dimming the lights on heavy notes. I just worry when I add that Orion, it's going to pull a lot of amperage. I plan on going with an Optima yellow top - just like all my cars.

500 watts RMS is plently for the IDQ. They are efficient sub. I really don't think you need to add in a second amp.
What do you think Xtreme?

A capacitor is just going to be a bigger drain on your electrical system. It is by no means a band-aid or fix for lack of power. If you have dimming lights get a do the big three, upgrade your headlight wiring harness (xtreme has a thread on this), or get a second battery.
A capacitor is also irrelevant if the amp in question has a regulated power supply like that found in the JL.
 

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While rated 200-1000rms, the IDMax definitely do not need 1000watts to reach their potential. I have run them on various amps and levels of impedance over the last few years, and anything 500+ is just fine.

I took it as the Orion was going to be used on the front stage and not the sub.

Can you clarify this OP?
I'm basing most of this off of the maximum mechanical excursion of this subwoofer and how much peak power it takes to make that excursion. I am currently running my IDMax10 in my wife's car off of her Boston Acoustics GT-50 at 400W RMS, and I can tell you without a doubt that the sub is heavily underpowered. She doesn't listen to very loud music so it won't really be a problem while I build her a box for her IDQ10 V2, but I personally wouldn't use this sub on anything under 750W.

500 watts RMS is plently for the IDQ. They are efficient sub. I really don't think you need to add in a second amp.
What do you think Xtreme?

A capacitor is just going to be a bigger drain on your electrical system. It is by no means a band-aid or fix for lack of power. If you have dimming lights get a do the big three, upgrade your headlight wiring harness (xtreme has a thread on this), or get a second battery.
A capacitor is also irrelevant if the amp in question has a regulated power supply like that found in the JL.
I agree on the IDQ. The IDQ drivers are very efficient and require very little power to produce lots of musical bass. 500W RMS will be fine as you said. I also agree whole-heartedly with the capacitor. To me, they are a complete waste of money and cause more problems than they are advertised to solve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Ok. I'll scratch the cap and look into adding a second battery if becomes an issue.
So I have a new idea:
What if I trade (somehow) my HD900/5 and Orion HCCA 250 amp for the JL HD600/4 and HD1200/1? I think that would fit this system better; I'd have plenty of power to push whatever sub(s) I chose, and I can feed the mids and highs separately with power more closely to their rated power.
Anyone have a better idea? Or perhaps another amp, or amps, recommendation?
Im really after clean, loud music. I know it can be done, as I've done it before. But I had different components that I used.
 

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Ok. I'll scratch the cap and look into adding a second battery if becomes an issue.
So I have a new idea:
What if I trade (somehow) my HD900/5 and Orion HCCA 250 amp for the JL HD600/4 and HD1200/1? I think that would fit this system better; I'd have plenty of power to push whatever sub(s) I chose, and I can feed the mids and highs separately with power more closely to their rated power.
Anyone have a better idea? Or perhaps another amp, or amps, recommendation?
Im really after clean, loud music. I know it can be done, as I've done it before. But I had different components that I used.
Don't stress the power requirements on the front speakers. You really won't need more than 50W RMS per channel to drive those speakers to their mechanical excursion limits and produce high distortion. The tweeters in fact won't even use 10W of power.

What are you doing for door treatment/insulation?
 

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Don't stress the power requirements on the front speakers. You really won't need more than 50W RMS per channel to drive those speakers to their mechanical excursion limits and produce high distortion. The tweeters in fact won't even use 10W of power.
Exactly. This is a popular belief I find ludicrous. Especially with my own drivers, I often hear people saying stuff like "they really open up with more than 250watts (rated for 150)". Bull

Just because you have an amp that can produce that kind of power, doesn't mean your drivers are receiving it.
Most often the case is as you just stated. The woofers will see around 50watts on music and the tweeters even less.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Logical. I'm at kind of a dilemma regarding the front door components. I'd like to run the stereo in network mode (high, mid, low), with the low going to amp sub channel, mid to the 6-1/2" woofers, and high to the tweeters. Because these are already component speakers with crossovers, should I just delete the crossovers and let the DEH-80PRS (head unit) do the processing, or (?)
 

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Logical. I'm at kind of a dilemma regarding the front door components. I'd like to run the stereo in network mode (high, mid, low), with the low going to amp sub channel, mid to the 6-1/2" woofers, and high to the tweeters. Because these are already component speakers with crossovers, should I just delete the crossovers and let the DEH-80PRS (head unit) do the processing, or (?)

Absolutely. Run active straight from the headunit. Thats the whole point of a unit like that. That shouldn't be a dilemma at all.

Using the crossovers that came with the speakers would mean you are running passive and giving up your ability to independently time align. ...unless you can bi-amp them. and even still, active would be the way to go in my opinion.

get rid of the passives, turn off the amp filters, and utilize all the tuning the headunit has to offer.
 

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Agreed on everything jstoner said. This "network" mode you're referring to is basically an active signal processor for setting your own crossover points on your head unit. The miniDSP does this as well and is more powerful, but also more complicated. For your purposes, you could just use the processing that your head unit offers and would get great results. We can help you figure out what crossover points to use when the time comes.

That said, since you are using the active crossover on your head unit, I would very, very highly recommend you consider using the Silver Flute drivers and Vifa tweeters I've been recommending to people with the miniDSP. They are a far better value and will allow you to cross down to 2200hz with a 4th order (24db/octave) slope. The midbass drivers are very smooth clear into the crossover region and have a very detailed vocal range. For the money spent, I guarantee you they would sound better than the Polk component set.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Those Silver Flute speakers look like they're hard to find...
Recommended sources and anticipated pricing for great-sounding 6-1/2" woofer and whatever tweeter will fit in the Cruze? (I have the capability of modifying the housings, but I'd prefer to not muck it up to the extent I can't return it to stock and offload the car.
 
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