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I replaced my ecu after hp tuners crapped out during a flash. I had a spare e78 with the same os and part number. I reflashed it with sps and now I can see the ecm again but the service theft deterrent system message is on. I have been researching for the last couple of days.... Nothing but conflicting things. How do I reset the theft deterrent system? I've heard mostly the key in and on but don't start for 10 minutes, off 5 seconds, back on no start for 10 min, etc. Has anyone had to do this? Or does anyone have concise info?


SOLUTION:

So, the actual dealer method didn't work for me, as I could not get the new ECM and the BCM to communicate. I know the BCM works, but yeah. Was not working. I can only think of 2 things that would stop it from communicating:

1) My trifecta tune being used previously, and somehow messed up how the BCM functions in the ECM key learn process.

2) The ECM/BCM communication is not working properly because of another device in between them screwing up communication.

When doing the 30 minute key relearn (will outline below. It's more like 45 minutes), the module for the anti-theft, ECM, and BCM start communications with each other. When the key is inserted into the ignition cylinder, a chip on the inside communicates with the anti-theft device, then the ECM talks to the BCM, and there is a kind of key/password exchange and a challenge. If that fails for some reason, the car gets disabled by a few different things (relay for the starter disabled, fuel controller gets a signal to NOT send fuel so it doesn't even prime, and the ECM, if it's even in the loop, is told not to fire the ignition, most of this done by setting DTCs).

For me, the ECM being different, you are basically schooling the ECM on the correct security code to talk to with the BCM. It takes hella long for security purposes; no thief is going to sit in the car doing something like this for 30 minutes or longer, and if you do it wrong, you have to start over, and after a few times, it will start a timer that won't even let you try again properly for 1, 5, 10, and 20 minutes, increasing until it eventually locks you out. It makes the vehicle incredibly difficult to steal unless you have the actual key.

Here is the procedure I followed for replacing the ECM and re-training for the key and BCM. NOTE: This was verified by multiple GM dealer technicians, using GM's own software, using GM approved hardware. It did not work, for some reason, mostly likely something screwing up communication with the BCM because of interference from another module, or a "bad" BCM.

This you will need:
-----------------------------
-Subscription to GM/AC Delco SPS and possibly GDS

- A working laptop with a VERY specific version of JRE (Jave Runtime Environment) running a 32 bit version of Windows. Yes, it will work with Windows 10. Just has to be 32 bit. Windows 7 in a virtual machine should work as well. The version of Java is old, and you need to configure your JAVA_HOME environment SYSTEM variable to point to the root of the JRE version's folder (the one with bin and lib folders). Do this before installing ANYTHING from GM.

- A GM approved SAE J2534 device. A tech2 will NOT work on these cars. Anything after 2014 is considered a "Global A" vehicle, and will require an MDI2 or another approved device. I used a MongoosePro GM II

- A new E78 ECU (or whatever your vehicle runs). It should be the same part number, but it really shouldn't matter. The best bet would be to find one from your same exact year and model, but it's not a hard requirement.

- A FULLY charged battery and laptop (or desktop on a crash cart). When doing ANYTHING to the vehicle regarding flashing, do NOT hook up a charger to it. If you have a stereo, disconnect the fuse for the amp, anything that can be turned off should be off or unplugged.

- ANY AND ALL ob2 devices, CAN bus sniffers, tuners, loggers, etc should be full disconnected. You do not want any chatter on the CAN bus while doing the procedure or it will start crying about "offboard programming detected" and won't let you proceed.


Dealer method:
----------------------------
1) Sign up for an SPS subscription. You should really only need this. DO NOT install anything yet. Just get it paid for and ready

2) install your drives and whatnot for your J2534 devices if you haven't already. If you are using a Mongoose or VXDiag or something, make sure you install the proxy drivers too. You are essentially running communications through the same stuff that the MDI2 will run through, but it allows for this devices to talk through it's API/ABI. Restart your system and verify your hardware/drivers/firmware are all updated and functional

3) Get whatever Java version it requires. I believe it's JRE 6.8 or 7.x.x. I don't remember. Again, it's a very specific version. Then when installed, set your JAVA_HOME SYSTEM environment variable and add it to your PATH. Restart and verify your Java version from the command line that way you know the environment variable is set properly.

4) Now, go to sps, and add VIN. This will open SPS, and it will download a small java file. Your computer will likely cry and get scared, which is good, but we want to make sure that any exceptions or warnings that come up are approved. May help to simply disable your firewall and any AV software too. Last thing you want is Windows to be stupid like usual and stop the SPS process in the middle of flashing.

4b) This will open, ask you for some permissions, and update itself. It will then open up a screen showing your current version of the tech2win driver and software, the j2534 proxy, and the extra java libs or something like that. Just make sure all of the dropdowns say install and click next. It will install them. If any fail, start the process over until it works. It sucks, but that is just the way it is.

4c) You should now be able to open up TIS2Web/SPS and go through the process.

This video walks you through the process in better detail:


5) After you have reprogrammed the ECM, you need to learn the ECM to the BCM. This is in SPS as well. Go into SPS and get to the point where it asks what type of reprogramming you want to do. There is an option it the list for ECM/key relearn. Just click it, and follow the instructions. It's very straightforward. If that does not work, then proceed to step 5b.

5b) insert your key, and turn to RUN, but DO NOT START OR TRY TO START. leave the key like that for 15 minutes. No more, no less. Set a stopwatch and be diligent. If it's not done right, it won't work.

5c) click the key to the off position for 30 seconds BUT DO NOT REMOVE. At exactly 30 seconds repeat step 5b (click it over to RUN but do NOT start.)

5d) repeat 5b and 5c 3 times.
-On for 15 mins, off for 30 sec
-On for 15 mins, off for 30 sec
-On for 15 mins, off for 30 sec

At this point you should be able to turn the car to run and start it. If it does not, make sure your anti theft isn't still armed. If it did not work, the anti theft light on the cluster will still be on. Try again. Keep trying until it works. If it doesn't work after a half dozen tries, something else is going on. Which was the case with me.

My ultimate solution at this point was to use the VATS disable with HP Tuners. I tried 4 different dealer tools, an Autel programming tool, and even my KESS v2 wouldn't go through the keylearn procedure. GDS would not either, which means it wasn't me, and there was something else going on. Regardless it's running now.

As for the people who mentioned the second procedure in SPS (the ecm/key relearn procedure), yes; you have to go through that, but I kept getting errors and it flat out wouldnt let me. GM techs told me that there was something wrong with the BCM, but it worked fine otherwise, which is why I am thinking it's a problem leftover from my trifecta tune being on my vehicle (don't ask for specifics, I am not going to put Vince and his team's inner-workings on blast).
 

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There's a second configuration through SPS you need to do to get the ECM to mate to the BCM.

If the ECM was new (the vin is 0000000 or xxxxx or something) then this is done automatically. But if the ECM was used before then it will not happen automatically.

There should also be some PIDs to see if the BCM-ECM security is valid or not.

After that, if it still doesn't work you can try the 30-minute key learn procedure. It's possible during the chaos the learned keys got reset.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well I tried the ecu replacement immo relearn but it always tells me that it can't talk to the ecm or bcm, but I know it's there and works because it can see it and hp tuners can write to it all day. Is there anything I'm missing besides the immo relearn in sps? I was thinking about try gds2 and seeing if that will work better.
 

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Well I tried the ecu replacement immo relearn but it always tells me that it can't talk to the ecm or bcm, but I know it's there and works because it can see it and hp tuners can write to it all day. Is there anything I'm missing besides the immo relearn in sps? I was thinking about try gds2 and seeing if that will work better.
It should have like an option where you can do both the ECM and BCM simultaneously. Does that work?

If not well GM's program sucks. You may need to splurge on a new ECM which matches the exact model year of the vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I did and it is. It came out of the exact same year, make and model, 1.4,manual,even the same color. Lol. Exact same os, same part number. Reflashed already and the vin is recognized properly. I'm thinking that my battery charger wasn't keeping the car properly charged when trying to reset it. Probably need a new ground terminal too. It's staying at a right proper 12v right now and I'm doing the 30 min key thing to see if it will relink the vats properly. I even flashed the ecu back to stock with trifecta stuff which has the original calibration and os for my car. I can read and write to it too. Just can't get the theft deterrent to relearn.
 

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I did and it is. It came out of the exact same year, make and model, 1.4,manual,even the same color. Lol. Exact same os, same part number. Reflashed already and the vin is recognized properly. I'm thinking that my battery charger wasn't keeping the car properly charged when trying to reset it. Probably need a new ground terminal too. It's staying at a right proper 12v right now and I'm doing the 30 min key thing to see if it will relink the vats properly. I even flashed the ecu back to stock with trifecta stuff which has the original calibration and os for my car. I can read and write to it too. Just can't get the theft deterrent to relearn.
I don't know if the sticker on the ECM shows them or not. In GDS2 you should find the end model part numbers and base part numbers. See if those numbers show up on the sticker and then see if they match the old one.

Only the base part number should need to match but this is GM and who knows what crap they write. The base part number is not the bootloader/SWPN#0.

I don't see why the Cruze's would use different base numbers but who knows. Sometimes there are undocumented mid year refreshes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I already have, as stated above. I used dealer tools to reprogram the ecu. It came out of the same exact car. Year and trim and even color. Part number matches, and it's been reprogrammed with the exact same calibrations and os that my original had. The only thing that's different is the theft deterrent password, and I can't get it to relearn. I'm getting some new keys cut right now to hopefully help. I'm thinking it deleted my keys when it got triggered. Idunno. Worth a shot. Also just bought an autel ap200 which should hopefully force the immo and vats and all that off so I cna get it to relearn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You want to play with the big boys... you gotta pay like the big boys. You've only just begunnnnnnnn
Like I said I think like 4 times now, I have the hardware AND the software. In spades. I've got a half of a rollaway full of obd2 and can/k-can/gmlan hardware I have bought and built. I know I can hack it. I don't want to. I'd prefer to do it without busting out my ktag and putting in a bdm frame if I don't need to. I also already talked to a local dealership's lead tech, and he said I'm doing everything right but gave me some pointers. The only thing I don't have is an mdi, and my mongoose cable works perfectly fine (and from what I hear is faster). I've also been writing my own tuning software after spending a year reverse engineering these gen iv and v ecms and their respective buses and protocols, as well as having two work proof-of-concept devices that work wirelessly. I may be one of the "big boys" some day, as you put it.

I DID reprogram it via sps and did a relearn of the clutch position and throttle position. It just locks up when I go to hit the vats/immo relearn (again, as stated above). I've only just begun, yes, but I've got a year and a half head start and within 18 months I had a functional poc and beta.... So, all condescension aside, do you guys actually know anything or are you just going to tell me to do what I already said I did, or in Mr. Shrooms CASE, act like you know something in an incredibly arrogant way and not provide any help? I'm so sick of this forum already. There are like 3 or 4 people who actually try and help, a bunch of people asking for help and then people like Mr shroomie tend to make up the rest.

@Shroomie... So, spill it. Do you have anything useful to contribute? I spent a minute writing hella detailed tutorials on how to tune, and have more that I started and just haven't got to yet. If you aren't going to help someone in the community that has actually tried to help the same community, feel free to catch the fast train back to your overlaid casing filled bulk substrate of sub-par mycelium. ;) I'm an old hand in that too. Teehee
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Is it possible to reset the ECM VIN just like they did on the radio upgrades?

How-To: Disassemble Radio To Program VIN
si. It was actually relatively painless doing it via sps (well as painless as using anything Java related can be. Haha). What I'm going to try now is use the mongoose cable to connect to tech2win (a tech2 emulator) and then use that as a pass-through to gds and sps and see if anything kicks. I'm fairly positive when I get the new keys I had cut earlier I should be able to add them after using the autel to relink the ecm.

@Snipesy oh that's an issue. I have a few generators for those passwords and I could use my ktag, but they bcm is fine, and when you add a new ecm it will auto learn itself to the bcm, and communicate the keys from the tdm under the ignition/key cylinder. Problem is, even with the passwords, if the ecm still hasn't been learned to the bcm so they communicate, the tds still gets tripped, and then I gotta start the process all over. The hard part is finding the exact steps with the right times to do it, otherwise it flat out doesn't work, so sayeth the GM gurus.

I've heard key on for 10 mins and 11 and 15 and the dude from GM told me key on until the tds light goes off, which didn't happen, but when you keep screwing with it, it adds anywhere from 10 seconds to to minutes between attempts, which I think has been my problem today. I was effing with it too much so right now I'm draining the power caps with the battery out of the car and giving it a nice solid charge and I'll try it how homie from gm said to do it (essentially the same way, but 15 minutes key on, then 30 seconds off..)... Idunno. Probably won't work until I get the new keys and reset/disable with the autel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
🤣🤣🤣🤣 you never disappoint Ronin. Don't forget about me when you make it big. I don't know ** about this **... that's why I have a tuner.
That's what I figured. I tune as well. I ******* hate this forum sometimes. You are useless. Go away unless you have something to contribute.
 

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@Snipesy oh that's an issue. I have a few generators for those passwords and I could use my ktag, but they bcm is fine, and when you add a new ecm it will auto learn itself to the bcm, and communicate the keys from the tdm under the ignition/key cylinder. Problem is, even with the passwords, if the ecm still hasn't been learned to the bcm so they communicate, the tds still gets tripped, and then I gotta start the process all over. The hard part is finding the exact steps with the right times to do it, otherwise it flat out doesn't work, so sayeth the GM gurus.
AEFE8000000000 when unlocked. Unplug your computer or whatever. Wait 10 minutes. Turn off key. Wait 30ish seconds for the ignition relay to flick off. Turn back on.

It's really simple you just need the security key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I meant that's not an issue, but that's the first time I have heard of that particular method yet. Mind expanding in that? High speed or low speed can? Gmlan? Lin bus? Again I shouldn't need to do that if factory tools actually do their job. Lol. So school me. I'm always open to info of any kind about anything and at this point I'm just ready to start my car again. I just reflashed the stock rpm with trifecta again, but disabled anything immo related, then did a segment swap with hp tuners with a tune from my old ecu. They don't exactly say what is swapping, but I'm hoping that the immo code went with it. About to find out in the am
 

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I meant that's not an issue, but that's the first time I have heard of that particular method yet. Mind expanding in that? High speed or low speed can? Gmlan? Lin bus? Again I shouldn't need to do that if factory tools actually do their job. Lol. So school me. I'm always open to info of any kind about anything and at this point I'm just ready to start my car again. I just reflashed the stock rpm with trifecta again, but disabled anything immo related, then did a segment swap with hp tuners with a tune from my old ecu. They don't exactly say what is swapping, but I'm hoping that the immo code went with it. About to find out in the am
That's straight from GM's mouth. You just send it to the module in question, wherever it is. In the ECM on like any car ever that is 7E0, on the primary high speed bus.

I don't even think the ECM is hooked up to the low speed bus. The BCM is but you can't talk to it on low speed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I realize that. The reason I am asking for you to explain more is because I wanted to know if you actually know what you are talking about. I know 7E0 is the ECU in the HSCAN bus. The ECM is not (on most cars), but there is usually a gateway that allows them traverse different buses (in our case, it's the gmlan gateway, which is how you get friendly with the BCM). It's not straight out of GM's mouth; I should be able to perform the functions mandated by the federal government that the OEMs provide. I called another stealership, and the tech started disregarding me immediately, saying that "you don't have the tools to do it", and I told him exactly what I had and exactly what I was doing and had done, and he said "no. you don't we have stuff you don't.", to which I replied "like what? Law says I am supposed to be able to do what you do in the US, so spill it. Right to Repair, brutha. I am just asking for some advice on the matter, and I am obviously not stupid in regard to this". He just transferred me to the parts dept.

Again, I know how to talk on the vehicle buses, and my own hardware, along with my 2 macchinas, random arduino and bus shields, and the drawers and drawers of tools I have can talk on any bus, even if I have to alligator clip to the wires themselves. Lol. To be honest, I am literally about to just use my own hardware and software to do it. There is not reason it shouldn't work, as it's wired up to a board that can switch at the drop of a dime what the pins do and how they are high/low or apply vbatt to. I may play with that later. My autel device should be here soon, and from what I have been reading, that should solve all of my problems without OEM tools, but also without going straight BDM can injection on it manually. Lol
 

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So do you want help or not?

The dealership is under no obligation under any law to help you. Please stop pestering them.

None of the techs at the dealerships here know who I am. As far as they are concerned I am a silly college kid whose parents have too much money. I drop off my truck for a/c problems. I pick up my truck and say thank you on the way out. I don’t pester them about how I can go home and “Rip that ecm apart and start modifying bits” to save $100. They have a job. I have a job. Let’s keep it that way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
First off, I didn't pester them. Second, I fixed it and know exactly what the fix is and how to perform it with a simple tool, no delearship anything needed and I wasn't trying to argue either. Sorry if it came off that way. And yes, they are compelled to help me, as the federal government made a few different laws about the right to repair and being able to have access to reflash my own stuff without getting taxed at the dealership.
 

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Yes. You have to right to flash your own vehicle, at a reasonable price. And GM does a very good job at following that unlike say Tesla. Anyone can just buy their service material online. You can buy an MDI 2 online, and have it delivered to your door.

That does not mean you can piggyback off the dealership or that they are obligated to help you in any way. Even for a price.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Well, yes they are. That is why all dealerships offer software subscriptions to flash your own vehicle. It's mandated. They aren't doing it out of kindness. That is why we have the J2534 standards, as well as revisions to obd standard, mandated CAN networks in every car after 2004 I think (regardless of if you use uds over can or kwp or xcp, it has to run over isotp with can, and be accessible to anyone.). The way they get around it is to make the subscriptions and tools sometimes prohibitively expensive. That particular gentleman was just a jerk. He right off the bat disregarded everything I said and knew, and just said to tow it in. I called MY dealership I got the car from, and when I got technical with one of the guys, he was very much ready to give me suggestions and said that everything that I was doing was exactly what they were doing but with an mdi2. I told him I had a mongoose pro gm II and it works fine with sps and gds2, and he said then you're all set and if it won't relearn the immo or reset it then the ecu was botched. And yes, you can piggyback off them. Hence the availability of the tools, access to tools and documents, and subs to the software, even if for a crazy price. If they weren't doing that, it's anti competitive, which is what the laws were out in place for.

Again, I already fixed it, without taking it to the dealer, and really with nobody helping me, so we are good. Thanks.
 
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