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Discussion Starter #21
This is a great question but the answer should differ slighlty for everyone. I did my own oil testing with the dealer fill dexos blend and it was showing around 7500 miles I could safely go. However I decided to use oil analysys I have seen on cruzetalk(most worse than mine) and averaged 6,000 miles I could go on the dexos blend safely.

Most people forget the 3 month part of the 3,000 mile oil change and this is just as important. In the winter I idle a ton more and drive allot more short trips on a cold engine. december-april I will not typically drive 6,000 miles, but want to change once the weather warms. This how I chose the every 4 months(or 3 times a year) part of my oil change regiment.

Since we all know any full synthetic is better than the dealer dexos blend, I switched to mobil 1. Even with mobil 1 I follow the 6,000mile/4 month change interval. This ensures my engine is always running with fresh clean oil and never has broken down or accumilated to much condensation.


EDIT: I should add my DIC oil life monitor has never seen below 40%, on my 2012 it always indicates around a 10,000 mile oil change.
We generally don't recommend past 6,000 miles for the dexos blend simply due to the quality of the oil.

This is what sets apart oil quality pretty strongly; the time interval. The reason for the 3 month part is that the oil oxidizes. The reason why they blast the vaporized hydrocarbons in the hydrocracking process is so the positive polarity of the remaining molecules once the contaminants are removed will not react with the negative polarity of the oxygen in the air and cause it to sludge up. A hydrocracked synthetic will generally be guaranteed for 6 months, and a true synthetic will be guaranteed for 12 months.

I'm not disagreeing with anything else you've said (especially all the bit about volatility which is very good info), but defining hydrocracking as purifying is not correct. Hydrocracking is breaking apart the molecules from the feedstock into smaller ones. This is a chemical reaction, not a purification which is a physical process. This is why group 3 oils are labelled synthetic.

Also, you say nothing that you purify from the ground will take the form of a plastic, but that's exactly what plastics are (except again, not purified). They are made (again chemically) from crude oil via polymerization reactions. These plastics (in this case PAOs) are then chemically reacted into the group 4 synthetics. As I said in my earlier post, there is far more chemistry (synthesis) involved in making the group 4/5 synthetics vs the group 3. Perhaps a better or clearer way to say it is that group 3 oils are synthesized DIRECTLY from crude oil (and may contain some unchanged molecules from the crude, I'm assuming there are limits here as to what can be labeled synthetic), whereas groups 4/5 are synthesized from crude oil derivatives (at least 2 steps). In groups 4/5, I'm assuming none of the molecules are in the same state as they were in the crude (for this you used the term "truly synthetic").

If we ever run out of crude oil from the ground, there will be no plastics or synthetic oils as we know them today as our raw material is gone in all cases.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative as I agree with everything you've said. It's just the chemistry teacher in me being particular about the terminology used to explain it. :)
Hey, I'm not going to argue with a chemist lol. I am certainly no chemist, and seeing as you are one, it is probably me who could learn from you. What I do know is based on the research and reading I have done, so I fully acknowledge that some of my information can be either wrong, partially correct, or incomplete. I have no problem with that.

I had believed that the sole purpose of hydrocracking was to remove contaminants that are otherwise impossible to remove through the standard refining process.

What is true is that in every test I have seen performed, the group 3 base stocks were inferior, all things kept equal. From what I have seen, the PAO/Ester blends will also maintain viscosity far better. They will thin a lot less in extreme hot temperatures and thicken a lot less in extreme cold temperatures. As a result, they will not require high levels of pour point depressants and viscosity index additives that will deplete over time. In fact, (I still have to verify this), it would appear that the AMSOIL signature series synthetics don't require those additives at all.

Molecular uniformity is a big selling point for true synthetics.

On that same note though it does not know what you actually put in your car and dos not actually test the oil. One could change oil based on the DIC reading but not without actually sending oil in for analysis, otherwise one would just be guessing.

Since we know none of the algorithum parameters I almost doubt its that complex. My drive is so different from my friend with a cruze, yet both our 2012 cars say around 10,000 miles on the oil life monitor. From this very small sample and what I have read on here it almost appear to be based soley on mileage. I can actually say I never heard of a 2012 cruze that did not indicate a 10,000 mile oil change.
It is that complex. We've had people join complaining that they have to change their oil in 4,000 miles. We later come to find out that they had a 2.5 mile drive to work every day.
 

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As a result, they will not require high levels of pour point depressants and viscosity index additives that will deplete over time. In fact, (I still have to verify this), it would appear that the AMSOIL signature series synthetics don't require those additives at all.
It wouldn't surprise me if Amsoil's Sig Series oils used much less VI Improvers than some other oils do. Amsoil's Viscosity Index specs for their oils are actually pretty low compared to most when you consider the premium base stock. The highest VI oil I can find on Amsoil's site is their 20W-50 Premium Protection oil at 172:

AMSOIL SAE 20W-50 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil

All of the Sig Series oils have a VI of 170 or less, and only the 0W oils have a VI of 170.

Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (TGMO) 0W-20 has a VI of 216, and the Idemitsu version of Mazda Genuine Motor Oil (MGMO) has a VI of 220. Both of these oils thicken FAR less with temperature than any of the conventional synthetic oil options, however fluidity at extremely low temperatures doesn't follow that same trend line and is additive dependant (as far as I know, Pour Point Depressants).

VI isn't everything and there's certainly more to a quality oil than just its viscosity, but it's still interesting that Amsoil isn't pushing their oils to higher VI's. Maybe the additives (VII's) required aren't durable enough to endure the extended OCI they recommend with the Sig Series oils... ?
 

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Discussion Starter #23
It wouldn't surprise me if Amsoil's Sig Series oils used much less VI Improvers than some other oils do. Amsoil's Viscosity Index specs for their oils are actually pretty low compared to most when you consider the premium base stock. The highest VI oil I can find on Amsoil's site is their 20W-50 Premium Protection oil at 172:

AMSOIL SAE 20W-50 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil

All of the Sig Series oils have a VI of 170 or less, and only the 0W oils have a VI of 170.

Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (TGMO) 0W-20 has a VI of 216, and the Idemitsu version of Mazda Genuine Motor Oil (MGMO) has a VI of 220. Both of these oils thicken FAR less with temperature than any of the conventional synthetic oil options, however fluidity at extremely low temperatures doesn't follow that same trend line and is additive dependant (as far as I know, Pour Point Depressants).

VI isn't everything and there's certainly more to a quality oil than just its viscosity, but it's still interesting that Amsoil isn't pushing their oils to higher VI's. Maybe the additives (VII's) required aren't durable enough to endure the extended OCI they recommend with the Sig Series oils... ?
I don't remember where, but I do remember that the formulation of the base stock (particularly the ester part of it) allows the oil to flow excellently at low temperatures without the addition of a pour point depressant. The base stock formulation allows AMSOIL to achieve with base stocks alone what other companies require additives for. Since there is no additive to deplete, the oil can technically go as long as you can filter it and as long as the TBN will last. The anti-wear additives and extreme pressure additives will keep the wear metals down. Heck, did you see the UOA I posted of the AMSOIL SS 0W-30?

http://imageshack.com/a/img15/6433/98sz.png


Here we have a 11,236 mile 0W-30 oil with a higher NOACK volatility than the same 5W-30 oil, thinning to a 20 weight oil with 3.6% fuel dilution and still protecting the engine well enough to result in nearly nonexistent wear metals. Had there not been any fuel dilution, the TBN was high enough to make this a 18,000-20,000 mile oil under those driving conditions.
 

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ive run my vehicles the last 15yrs on one oil/filter change per year

i use the cheapest 5w30 dino oil i can find whether it be brand name on sale or store brand

ditto with filter, 90% of the time im using a fram filter

anywhere from 5000 to 15000 miles per year

magically, ​my motors are just fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
ive run my vehicles the last 15yrs on one oil/filter change per year

i use the cheapest 5w30 dino oil i can find whether it be brand name on sale or store brand

ditto with filter, 90% of the time im using a fram filter

anywhere from 5000 to 15000 miles per year

magically, ​my motors are just fine.
I'd say magically is the correct term for that. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Fram filter's plastic bypass valve break or the filter element tear from a high pressure cold start. But hey, it's your car. I'll bet your top end is full of more sludge than a gulf coast oil spill.
 

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With the Amsoil SS oil (Andrei, I will contact you to order this soon), what is the recommended change interval? 15K? Basically I'm starting to see that while I love Pennzoil Ultra, I'm changing my oil every ~7500 miles. But if I can stretch that mileage, I could see the value in paying the premium price for SS.
 

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ive run my vehicles the last 15yrs on one oil/filter change per year

i use the cheapest 5w30 dino oil i can find whether it be brand name on sale or store brand

ditto with filter, 90% of the time im using a fram filter

anywhere from 5000 to 15000 miles per year

magically, ​my motors are just fine.
When I first got my driver's license, I started driving my parents' '85 Cavalier. They weren't much on maintenance back then and I gave it it's first oil change in at least 10000 miles. I didn't know much about cars at the time but that oil was the sludgiest (if that's even a word) black mess I've ever seen. This was about 1993 and the car had about 100k by then. By 135k, it wouldn't go up hills anymore. I don't know how much of that was engine and how much was transmission, but that was an interesting vehicle in any case especially near the end.

Personally, I prefer to be pickier about what goes in my engine and I've seen the insides of a Fram filter. I'll stick to using higher quality fluids and filters and changing them slightly more often than admittedly is probably necessary. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not sure what oil I'm going to end up putting into the Cruze after my 4 free dealer oil changes are done, but I'm probably going to end up using Mobil 1 with Delco filters about every 6-8k. That's what I do with my Odyssey and it's running great so far at 100k.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
With the Amsoil SS oil (Andrei, I will contact you to order this soon), what is the recommended change interval? 15K? Basically I'm starting to see that while I love Pennzoil Ultra, I'm changing my oil every ~7500 miles. But if I can stretch that mileage, I could see the value in paying the premium price for SS.
Oil testing analysis has shown that as long as you don't drive in such a manner as to cause fuel dilution, light driving will take you to at least 12k miles. I drive somewhere between normal and severe so I will get the analysis done at 10k and will post it. It will be several more months however.

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So bottom line is that with the AMSOil signature motor oil I should be able to actually trust the OLM in my 2012 ECO.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
So bottom line is that with the AMSOil signature motor oil I should be able to actually trust the OLM in my 2012 ECO.
As a minimum, yes. I won't be offended if people don't want to exceed the OLM, but the oil is capable of going longer.

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10K mile oil change sounds good to me. It would work out annually to about the same price as Pennzoil Ultra. We'll be in touch next week.
 

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Thats the problem though everyones drive is different. One should base thier change interval on their own oil testing. Thats not even taking into consideration how the same oil behaves differently in each engine, because of that only oil analysis done on the 1.4T should be used as reference.
Good point and true, however, my first statement is still accurate in most cases. I've studied probably dozens of these reports from many different makes of cars and drivers. In most cases I saw the oil would have easily done the 10k.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I'm probably going to end up using Mobil 1 with Delco filters about every 6-8k. That's what I do with my Odyssey and it's running great so far at 100k.
I am really not a fan of Mobil 1's use of Mg-based detergents/dispersants in the oil. This gives a false sense sense of TBN effectiveness and life as the TBN retention will be better but the TAN will also end up higher as Mg-based detergents are less effective at neutralizing acidity. With the exception of Castrol Edge, the rest of the synthetic industry uses exclusively Ca-based detergents.
 

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I am really not a fan of Mobil 1's use of Mg-based detergents/dispersants in the oil. This gives a false sense sense of TBN effectiveness and life as the TBN retention will be better but the TAN will also end up higher as Mg-based detergents are less effective at neutralizing acidity. With the exception of Castrol Edge, the rest of the synthetic industry uses exclusively Ca-based detergents.
Not to mention that most M1 analysis reports I seen reveal high iron readings and excess oil consumption.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Not to mention that most M1 analysis reports I seen reveal high iron readings and excess oil consumption.
I've noticed the same.

Look for an oil with substantial Boron and Molybdenum (anti-wear and extreme pressure additives) as well as a TBN of at least 8 and a NOACK volatility of no higher than ~11.5%. Phosphorous and Zinc are API mandated below 800ppm.

Sent from mobile.
 

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Look for an oil with substantial Boron and Molybdenum (anti-wear and extreme pressure additives) as well as a TBN of at least 8 and a NOACK volatility of no higher than ~11.5%. Phosphorous and Zinc are API mandated below 800ppm.

Sent from mobile.
This reminds me of the Charlie Brown episodes when the voice is talking to him and you cant understand it.. Wont wont wont wont wont....

I will just use SS Amsoil and know that I am good.. :biggrin:
 

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pL2014 said:
...I'm not sure what oil I'm going to end up putting into the Cruze after my 4 free dealer oil changes are done...
Will your dealer change your oil more frequently than the OLM suggests? The GM Dexos oil seems to run out of steam before the OLM suggests it needs changing... from what I've seen 5-6000 miles is about as far as you'd want to go on that oil.

pl2014 said:
...but I'm probably going to end up using Mobil 1 with Delco filters about every 6-8k. That's what I do with my Odyssey and it's running great so far at 100k.
This is exactly what I did for my 2nd and third oil changes after dumping the factory fill at 4000 kms. I posted a UOA from my last oil change with about 7500 miles on Mobil 1 5W-30 and the experts over at BITOG had nothing bad to say about it:

Mobil 1 5W-30, 12,000km (~7500 mi), '12 Cruze 1.4T | Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline | Bob Is The Oil Guy

I'm generally easy on oil, but I'm hard on the engine as I'm stopping and starting it all the time to save fuel. This is "start-up" wear intensive, since for the first revolution or so the crank and rod bearings have no oil pressure to keep them separated. My UOA was mostly done out of curiosity to see if I was actually hurting the engine. Mobil 1 5W-30 is doing a good job (when changed out at 7500 miles).
 

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Will your dealer change your oil more frequently than the OLM suggests? The GM Dexos oil seems to run out of steam before the OLM suggests it needs changing... from what I've seen 5-6000 miles is about as far as you'd want to go on that oil.

This is exactly what I did for my 2nd and third oil changes after dumping the factory fill at 4000 kms. I posted a UOA from my last oil change with about 7500 miles on Mobil 1 5W-30 and the experts over at BITOG had nothing bad to say about it:

Mobil 1 5W-30, 12,000km (~7500 mi), '12 Cruze 1.4T | Used Oil Analysis - Gasoline | Bob Is The Oil Guy

I'm generally easy on oil, but I'm hard on the engine as I'm stopping and starting it all the time to save fuel. This is "start-up" wear intensive, since for the first revolution or so the crank and rod bearings have no oil pressure to keep them separated. My UOA was mostly done out of curiosity to see if I was actually hurting the engine. Mobil 1 5W-30 is doing a good job (when changed out at 7500 miles).
I just got a message from my dealer saying that my 3000 mile oil change is coming up (even though I only have 1100 miles on the car), so I'm assuming they'll change it 4 times whenever I want. It's 2 years or 4 oil changes whichever comes first if I understand the language correctly.

In any case, I definitely won't go past 6000 miles. I'll probably do it around 5k. Based on this and a couple other threads (and going to BITOG, etc), I'm thinking I might switch from Mobil 1 to Pennzoil Ultra (both in my wife's van and for my cruze once my free oil changes are done) assuming I can find it for a reasonable price. Fortunately, the van just got it's 100k service (spark plugs, timing belt, water pump, etc) so I won't need to do anything for a while.
On a slightly related note, this forum (again with the help of some outside reading) has also convinced me to not put a K&N drop-in in either vehicle. My Intrigue went 212k (and then I traded it, it wasn't dead yet) with a K&N drop-in, but the Delco air filters for the Cruze are only $10 on Rock Auto and the severe service schedule says I only need to change it every 45k. I'm not sure I'll wait that long, but I can replace it 4-5 times for the cost of a K&N (especially once you factor in the cleaning/oil kits). That's over 150k. My main reason for the K&N on my last car was to save me replacing filters all the time, but I used to replace that one (or clean the K&N as it ended up) every 15k. Apparently, I was doing that way too often. My intake was always spotless inside though......
 
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