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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So let me get this right !
Rand Paul is going to ahh decide to philabuster a vote to extend this acts collection of bulk data ..

Why did we build a center to collect all of said data in ahh Utah only to close IT down ? ahh Really , Oh the Senate will then Pass some sort of new bill that allows the collection from corporations to gather claim and hold this data . Now the NSA will have to get a Warrant for any and all Data .. Yeah right . The whole Idea with the Patriot Act is to circumvent the courts and Move on speculated data with out court orders ..ahh were moving backwards from a position of full disclosure of communications because some politicians deem it pŕudent to disadvantage our policing authorities ...Wow .

The CIA and the FBI could be next on some politicians agenda because they don't want to be indicted .
 

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IMO I don't do anything wrong so they have my permission to snoop away on me :brave: My only problem would be is the spending of my taxes on some BS that gets us no where.
 

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I've come to the conclusion that our government doesn't know whether to scratch it's watch or wind it's butt. It goes from federal to local. We have roads and streets here that are unfit for a Wrangler to drive on, yet a council woman wanted to spend $20K for murals on run down buildings in town. State is just as bad, but good news is our Governor is running for President! After the 2016 elections, everything will be run by different people (NOT!).
 

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The Patriot Act contains multiple sections that are blatant violations of the 4th Amendment's prohibition on searches and seizures. Unfortunately SCOTUS is too stupid as a group of 9 to figure this out.

One of the claims Edward Snowden made was that the NSA was able to decrypt communications in real time. Everyone of course sneered at him for this claim but two weeks ago a vulnerability was disclosed that provides a technical way for the NSA, or anyone else with sufficient computing power, to decrypt communications in real time. We also know from Snowden that the NSA, FBI, and CIA have all spent quite of bit of time and resources violating the 4th Amendment by monitoring US Citizen to US Citizen communications, both as meta-data showing who is connected to whom, and now, with this vulnerability disclosure, apparently the actual communications as well. This vulnerability is a direct result of the Clinton era restrictions on the export of strong cryptographic systems. Those restrictions only served to put US computer technology companies at a competitive disadvantage relative to the rest of the world.
 

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The Patriot Act contains multiple sections that are blatant violations of the 4th Amendment's prohibition on searches and seizures.
Even without the patriot act when it comes to our national security they have always violated our rights, only difference now is they have laws protecting them if they do so. NONE of this activity will stop if the patriot act is canceled, only difference they can't use the data they illegally collected to build their case.
 

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Whenever I spoke out against The Patriot Act over 10 years ago, my conservative friends would get mad. Ask me, "Why do you hate America so much? Why do you want the terrists[sic] to win?"

Why does Rand Paul hate America so much? :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
As far as Edward Snowden and his dime dropping BS ..did he really think that an act of Treason would be a Prudent idea to Exclaim to the World Standard practices for Espionage that are endorsed by a MultiNation Pact .Would do anything to enhance the General Publics Grasp of what is needed to Protect Said Citizens from potential threats .. Why **** no he's just a punk .

How about your own city township are there any Emergency Plans of action in place to keep It's Citizens Safe from Potential Threats ? Say Like an onslaught of Water as in Houstons case this past week .
 

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You should have seen the blank stare I got when I told a Denver City police officer at DIA that they needed to be checking for vehicle bombs out where the parking toll booths used to be - about five miles from the terminal building. He flat out did NOT understand that checking for bombs at the terminal would stop a Timothy McVeigh, but not an Islamic Extremist from blowing up the terminal building.

As for the Patriot act, it is flat out a violation of the US Constitution and every single elected official who has voted for this thing should be charged with violation of their oath of office - "to support and DEFEND the Constitution of the United States". Instead, the Bush Administration used 9/11 to destroy what little was left of the Constitution after nearly four decades of the "war on drugs" had managed to abrogate just about every single protection in the Constitution.

Anyone else need a well thought out and written document describing how governments should work - we aren't using ours anymore. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The other fact is to get the agencies under 1 umbrella for ease of communications across specialties !
 

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The other fact is to get the agencies under 1 umbrella for ease of communications across specialties !
Very true. Stovepipes are a guaranteed way to make a disaster worse. Our intelligence communities are stupid when it comes to sharing. A perfect example from the Vietnam War - the Sontay Raid to liberate POWs would have been scrapped had the intelligence idiots bothered to share with operations that the American POWs had been moved because of potential flooding of the camp. Intel knew a week before that the POWs were being moved to another camp not in danger of flooding but because of their "Need to Know" culture didn't bother to actually give this information to the operations community, who definitely "Needed to Know".

However, the Patriot Act wasn't needed to bring our intelligence gathering organizations under one umbrella. Congress could have simply done it with a simple and short law - "All US Intelligence organizations, civilian and military, shall henceforth be under the direction of the National Security Agency". Instead, they wrote a monstrosity that effectively nullifies the 1st, 4th, and 6th Amendments to the US Constitution. The 1st Amendment protections of voluntary associations and petitioning the government have been restricted, the 4th Amendment search and seizure, and the 6th Amendment right to face your accuser and speedy trial for US Citizens. The FISA Court, which our intelligence communities use, has only refused warrants one or two times since it was created. And when arrested on a National Security Warrant you literally may never see the inside of a courtroom or your accuser or evidence against you.

Granted, the Patriot Act didn't create these abuses. They were already in place, but not codified into law. This still doesn't make these abuses right, even with today's threats. This act did one good thing, it forced our intelligence communities to work together as one community. By the way, this cooperation is still being fought by the bureaucracies in the intelligence communities. It also had the side effect of enabling Edward Snowden to see what was going on behind the scenes and then bring that information to light. People who claim he is a traitor to the US forget that if we can do this so can other Nation States. If you think the US Congress would act to curb these abuses you are sadly mistaken - many of our elected officials knew what was going on but they did nothing about it. Snowden forced them to at least acknowledge that they knew. Knowing that Nation States have this type of capability is the first step to keeping our freedoms in the 21st century.
 

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The Patriot Act was enacted a time when the Government knew most Americans would accept those types of laws. We were scared of terrorists and scared that they might do something like 9/11 again. The government likes to keep the American populous scared because they can control us easier. If the government comes out and says this new surveillance technology will help find terrorists then the people who are scared (which is still most Americans) will accept it easier. Nobody took the time to actually read what the Patriot Act entailed. People were scared shitless and wanted the government to do something about it, and they did. They took away our 1st, 4th, and 6th Amendment rights when the act was signed.

Think about it, the 1st Amendment says that we have the freedom of speech, religion, and press. Do we really? To be honest we havent for a long time. The only difference is, the Patriot Act made it pretty much a crime to say anything, practice any religion other than Christianity or Catholicism, and our press well that is still screwed up.

Our 4th Amendment prohibits unreasonable search and seizure. The Patriot Act did make it legal for law enforcement to come into your house under suspicion of terrorist activities and search without a warrant. This part of the Patriot Act has since been taken to Federal court and has been over ruled. Law enforcement now need a warrant to search your house or property under suspicion. Granted not all of them do this, but it has been addressed and is easier to get evidence collected thrown out in court.

The 6th Amendment gives us the right to a fair and speedy trial. Now I understand that things take time such as evidence collecting and such, but the Patriot Act allows law enforcement to hold the suspect indefinitely in jail or prison. This means that you can be held for years without going to trial and without facing your accuser. To me this just seems crazy.

Now most people who read this would think, "Oh I do nothing wrong so I am not going to be a target of law enforcement." Dont be so sure of that. Even as an American citizen, born and raised and you love your country to the end of the world, you are still a suspect. If you ever happen to fall into the category where you are being investigated you might as well kiss all of your rights goodbye. You have now become a foreigner. Your rights as an American citizen have now been stripped away.

Again the government likes to keep its people scared. Scared sheep are more likely to follow orders than to buck the system. The government doesnt like people who buck the system. If the people become unruly then the government needs to do something to reign them in. Our rights are slowly being taken away. Little by little, and yet, most of us are still blinded. We are more interested in what the left hand of the gov is doing when the right hand is doing something completely worse.

Anyways, that is my take on everything.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
AAAAHHHHH Ğ OK Wrong .............................I am unaware of Marshall law being declared Nation Wide .. Homeland Security has not Secured peoples of this country and declared that they do not have Constitutional Rights !

Now some how people are misconstrueing War acts and all that it entails for Combatants as they would be afforded U.S.A. afforded Constitutional Protections .

Plane and simple .. If you or some one commits a Terrorist act on U.S. soil you will be Prosecuted to the fullest extent of our laws .

If you or some one commits an act against our armed sevices on , or in a combat territory ...say by ......

During World War 2 there were 5 Nation States that Had to Join Together to perform Espionage and other related acts of Secrecy ..Can you tell me those 5 ?
 

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This is going back about 14 years ago, our Senator Feingold was the only senator to vote against it. When asked why, he replied, because he was the only one that read it. This caused me to read it also.

In dealing with the DOS and the NVC to gain a visa for somebody to visit here, their first and foremost requirement is they only want the rich to come here. And this is exactly whom these terrorists were, super rich. The APA never addressed this issue!

When I first met my wife, realized I didn't know the first thing about immigration, so elected to find one of the top US immigration attorneys. Not exactly stupid with attorneys, just needed guidance, so wrote up a six page contract with a flat fee, half then, second half after my wife and stepdaughter received their green cards.

Both would be coming here for a visit, first warning he gave me is that when anyone enters the US will be issued an I-94 limiting the stay, do not exceed this limit. While some odd 11 million came here on visas, they just stayed here, apparently they don't check on this. But if you apply for a green card, this is the very first thing they check, and if you overstayed even for one day, you will be deported.

If their flight was delayed, still had to get them back to the airport in time to get through the POE, then they had to wait inside of the airport until they got their flight.

After we were married, could not even add my wife to my join bank account due to the APA, but for whatever reason, could get her a credit card in her name. When I enrolled my stepdaughter in high school no proof of illegality was required and it was free. But when we had to lay out a small fortune for our university, this is when she had to show her green card, even before they would admit her. This is how stupid the APA is.

Rest of it didn't care, we all had FBI checks, and had to show proof to the USCIS of every dime I had. Even our love life was an open book to them. Photos, emails, letters, plane tickets, and proof of our relationship was paying bills and taxes together, plus joint ownership. Ha, how do you prove you have joint ownership of a toaster?

APA was worthless in keeping out terrorist as long as they had a lot of money, they were welcomed. Don't even care if the NSA is reading this, because these are facts.

Already have way too many law enforcement agencies in this country that can't even talk to each other. So how do they solve this problem? Create yet another agency. Talk about a group of idiots running this country.
 

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Well put Boog8302!!!
Don't forget about Eminent Domain. With this we don't even own our property either.
 

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Well put Boog8302!!!
Don't forget about Eminent Domain. With this we don't even own our property either.
The difference is that eminent domain is found in the original constitution. No property shall be taken without just compensation. Now if you were talking about the seizure of any significant amount of money found during a traffic stop, I could agree with you there.
 

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AAAAHHHHH Ğ OK Wrong .............................I am unaware of Marshall law being declared Nation Wide .. Homeland Security has not Secured peoples of this country and declared that they do not have Constitutional Rights !

Now some how people are misconstrueing War acts and all that it entails for Combatants as they would be afforded U.S.A. afforded Constitutional Protections .

Plane and simple .. If you or some one commits a Terrorist act on U.S. soil you will be Prosecuted to the fullest extent of our laws .

If you or some one commits an act against our armed sevices on , or in a combat territory ...say by ......

During World War 2 there were 5 Nation States that Had to Join Together to perform Espionage and other related acts of Secrecy ..Can you tell me those 5 ?
Section 215, which has finally been declared unconstitutional, applied the Patriot Act to US Citizens on US Soil. Under this section, a US Citizen who was accused of even aiding and abetting terrorists (no restriction on foreign or domestic or what aiding and abetting means) could be arrested and held indefinitely without bail, a court hearing, or any of the protections of the US Constitution. This same section also gave the US Government the "legal" authority to bypass the courts when it came to surveillance, even on US Citizens. The reality is that those of us pointing out that the Patriot Act is unconstitutional in this thread could be arrested for "aiding and abetting" terrorism, simply for exercising our 1st Amendment right to freedom of speech. There are other sections that are unconstitutional as well, but this one was the most egregious.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Section 215, which has finally been declared unconstitutional, applied the Patriot Act to US Citizens on US Soil. Under this section, a US Citizen who was accused of even aiding and abetting terrorists (no restriction on foreign or domestic or what aiding and abetting means) could be arrested and held indefinitely without bail, a court hearing, or any of the protections of the US Constitution. This same section also gave the US Government the "legal" authority to bypass the courts when it came to surveillance, even on US Citizens. The reality is that those of us pointing out that the Patriot Act is unconstitutional in this thread could be arrested for "aiding and abetting" terrorism, simply for exercising our 1st Amendment right to freedom of speech. There are other sections that are unconstitutional as well, but this one was the most egregious.
Well we have to hand it to those Boneheads whom drafted this particular piece of Legislation for Giving themselves all out Authority to excersise undiclosed terms when necessary to apprehend any and all Terroerist Suspects .. By any means necessary was popular with The V.P.
You Go to War with the Army that you have .. and we did take the gloves off for a very determined peoples that were not going to settle for best guessing ..

Understanding these provisions does not necessarily mean that this United States should not utilize these tools to Gather Intelligence in Support of Gaining access to any and all Assumed Threats to our Public ..

Granted we now have the ability to touch any unsuspecting hoodlum that is not up to date with Technology ...

And on to this ...Corporations want to remain safe . and have ease of access to the world markets ..
 
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