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I have that tune because I installed those parts in Smurfenstein's car. The tweeters will fit just fine with some hot glue. That tweeter cover was for my MDT-44 drivers because those have a dome that protrudes past the mounting plane and no cover. You don't need to do that with the Seas Prestige.

That amp will power the RS-180s just fine. You will need another 2-channel amp for the tweeters but you don't need anything really powerful. You'll never give them over 15W RMS. You need 4 total channels of amplification.

Sent from mobile.
Ah crap. I wasn't aware I'd need to power the tweeters separate from the Daytons. Per your post yesterday in the subwoofer box you recommended this amp for the Peavey 15". I'd hate to have 3 separate amps.

Boston Acoustics GT-2300 1400 Watts GT Reference Series 2-Channel Amplifier

What would be a good 4 channel amp so I can just have 2 amps in my trunk? (Maybe I'll open a new thread for all of this so I can combine all my questions between the sub and front stage)
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Ah crap. I wasn't aware I'd need to power the tweeters separate from the Daytons. Per your post yesterday in the subwoofer box you recommended this amp for the Peavey 15". I'd hate to have 3 separate amps.

Boston Acoustics GT-2300 1400 Watts GT Reference Series 2-Channel Amplifier

What would be a good 4 channel amp so I can just have 2 amps in my trunk? (Maybe I'll open a new thread for all of this so I can combine all my questions between the sub and front stage)
Go ahead and create a new thread and I'll respond to that one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Forgive me if I missed it somewhere else, but did you upgrade your system with the Dayton/Seas drivers? If so, did you offer your opinions of the upgrade? In your opinion is there a large difference between the two setups?
I did not upgrade mine. My Morel MDT-44 tweeters are going out soon in favor of CSS LD25X. Those will be an epic improvement. Those tweeters are in world-class harmonic distortion levels. I'm talking ribbon tweeter quality, but with a 1.85mm xmax and the ability to cross LOW. Low as in, 1200-1500Hz.

The Dayton/Seas combo went into Smurf's car when he drove out to have me set it up. I am VERY happy with that tune and the way it all sounded. The tweeters were phenomenal, and the woofers have a strong midbass and a very clear midrange. For an aluminum cone, I was impressed. I have them in my Statement Monitors in my home theater, but they are used in a 3-way with a Fountek Ribbon and a Titanium/Neodymium Tang Band midrange. I figured since I did his install, I'd post the tune file so others can follow in his footsteps and get the same results he did. The tune file for that combo is pretty much perfect.

The biggest advantage to his setup is a higher output midbass, a phase plug for better off-axis midrange, and a tweeter that can cross 300Hz lower than the Vifa, which raises sound stage a healthy amount.
 

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My Morel MDT-44 tweeters are going out soon in favor of CSS LD25X.
Hence the "High Value" and "Mid Level" designations, suggesting your move to work on a "High End" setup... those tweeters ain't cheap! Were you able to get the faceplate-free version? Looks like you'll have a little "Canuk" in your ride. :)

Are you planning to step up to a fancier midbass as well, or is that a secret for now?
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Hence the "High Value" and "Mid Level" designations, suggesting your move to work on a "High End" setup... those tweeters ain't cheap! Were you able to get the faceplate-free version? Looks like you'll have a little "Canuk" in your ride. :)

Are you planning to step up to a fancier midbass as well, or is that a secret for now?
I got the version with the removable faceplate. They should fit nicely in my pods that way.

I would LOVE to put in a high end mid bass like a ScanSpeak Revelator, an Accuton, or an Usher, or so forth, but we're talking $200+ per driver. The only way I'd do it is if someone gave me the drivers to tune. Otherwise, I will post a special tune for the Silver Flute + CSS combo. I am fairly comfortable with the Silver Flutes as they are on a level 2x their price tag. I can't say enough good things about them.

I hope to eventually complete a high end designation combo. Maybe I should put a donation link in this thread so people could fund me a pair of Revelators so I could throw that tune up too.

Sent from mobile.
 

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I would LOVE to put in a high end mid bass like a ScanSpeak Revelator, an Accuton, or an Usher, or so forth, but we're talking $200+ per driver.
So reading between the lines, I'm hearing that you don't consider the Dayton RS180 to be enough of a step up to bother with the upgrade, correct? If you had to start again from scratch would you choose the Daytons or stick with the Flutes?

How much extra room was left over when installing the RS180s? Were they a tight fit?
 

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Extreme, I don't understand exactly the difference between High Value and Mid Level, I can understand Mid/High Value and Mid/High Level...
Are you saying Silver Flute/Vifa > Dayton/Seas Prestige? Or the other way around? I should be doing an audio upgrade next year based on what I've learned from you, and I'm really looking for the best quality I can get (I still don't have a budget, but hopefully it will be around $1500)
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
So reading between the lines, I'm hearing that you don't consider the Dayton RS180 to be enough of a step up to bother with the upgrade, correct? If you had to start again from scratch would you choose the Daytons or stick with the Flutes?

How much extra room was left over when installing the RS180s? Were they a tight fit?
I personally prefer paper cones. The RS180s are aluminum cones, while the Silver Flutes are a wool/paper composite. I do think the RS180s are a more accurate and they have a higher excursion, but I prefer the sound of the Silver Flutes. The RS180s are $50 and the Silver Flutes are $30, and I don't think the 67% increase in cost translates to a 67% increase in sound. The RS180 is an excellent driver, but it isn't as amazing of a value as the Silver Flutes. The Silver Flutes should more accurately be $50-$60 drivers, while the RS180s should be $65-$75 drivers. If I were to upgrade the Silver Flutes, it would be for a polypropylene, paper composite, or woven fiber driver in the $100-$150 range (each), like one of these:

Usher 8948A 7" Carbon Fiber/Paper Woofer | 296-603
The Madisound Speaker Store

Between the two, I'd probably stick with the Seas for long-term availability. My ultimate driver would be this one:
The Madisound Speaker Store

Unfortunately, I don't have $420 laying around. If I did, there wouldn't be a single car audio branded install that could touch me. Also, the CSS LD25X appears to be NLA due to some Fs consistency issues so a tune for it wouldn't do anyone any good.

For the "high performance" level, here's the tweeter I would recommend:

The Madisound Speaker Store

Extreme, I don't understand exactly the difference between High Value and Mid Level, I can understand Mid/High Value and Mid/High Level...
Are you saying Silver Flute/Vifa > Dayton/Seas Prestige? Or the other way around? I should be doing an audio upgrade next year based on what I've learned from you, and I'm really looking for the best quality I can get (I still don't have a budget, but hopefully it will be around $1500)
The Silver Flute/Vifa combo is $100 total. The Dayton/Seas combo is $190. Based on that, one would think the Silver Flute/Vifa combo is "low level," and the Dayton/Seas combo is "mid level." However, I didn't want to give people the impression that the Silver Flute/Vifa combo is a low end kit, because they blow the daylights out of anything under $400 with a car audio label. Absolutely anything. The Dayton/Seas combo blow away anything under $650 with a car audio label. It is difficult for most people to grasp just how good these drivers are compared to what you get in the car audio world.

the Silver Flute/Vifa combo is the value king. If you want the best bang for your buck, hands down, you will not find ANYTHING in the car audio or home audio world that will beat those two drivers together. They are unbeatable. The Dayton/Seas combo is a better combo, but it is almost 2x more expensive, and doesn't sound 2x better in my opinion. It does sound better, but not 2x better. As a result, it isn't as high of a value.

Unfortunately, I don't have a miniDSP tune for a super high end install ($500 for drivers) yet. Part of that is because I can't afford them, but I'm hoping someday, someone will see the value in these tunes saving them hundreds of dollars over car audio branded alternatives and dozens of hours of tuning with equipment they don't have to order me some of these drivers so I can get them a tune for them.
 

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From what I remember of the tuning, you did all 4 speakers separate from each other, which when all added up created the finished sound stage. Would I be wrong then to say that couldn't you separate the tweeters from the mid ranges and sort of piece tune files together? So for example, when you have the CCS tweeters tuned, couldn't you theoretically take the tune for them, and put it in the place of the tune for the SEAS tweeters, so you have a tune file for a Dayton/CCS combo if someone wanted to do that? I have a very strong feeling you're going to call me an idiot, stating that although they're all tuned separately, they also need to be crossed together, and the CCS tweeters don't cross properly with the Daytons, or would require extra tuning.

I'm just saying... theoretically... could you cut tunes apart, and piece them together for more combinations? Also, lets say one day expensive mid ranges/tweeters showed up on your door stop with money for shipping to my house when you're done making the tuning file? Granted you will receive tuning comp, to cover time required to install new said speakers, tune, then un-install.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
From what I remember of the tuning, you did all 4 speakers separate from each other, which when all added up created the finished sound stage. Would I be wrong then to say that couldn't you separate the tweeters from the mid ranges and sort of piece tune files together? So for example, when you have the CCS tweeters tuned, couldn't you theoretically take the tune for them, and put it in the place of the tune for the SEAS tweeters, so you have a tune file for a Dayton/CCS combo if someone wanted to do that? I have a very strong feeling you're going to call me an idiot, stating that although they're all tuned separately, they also need to be crossed together, and the CCS tweeters don't cross properly with the Daytons, or would require extra tuning.

I'm just saying... theoretically... could you cut tunes apart, and piece them together for more combinations? Also, lets say one day expensive mid ranges/tweeters showed up on your door stop with money for shipping to my house when you're done making the tuning file? Granted you will receive tuning comp, to cover time required to install new said speakers, tune, then un-install.
I measured them together, then tuned things by ear as well that spanned both drivers. If you check the minidsp file, I have 6 bands per driver tuned, and an additional 6 bands per channel. It wouldn't be that easy to split them up as a result of that, but you could probably open both tune files to figure out what applies to what and make your own file out of it.

It isn't practical or feasible to install and uninstall drivers just for the purpose of tuning. Mounting drivers into the pillars is one issue, and getting door baffles re-drilled for any change in screw pattern is the other issue.

Part of the tuning is or course the crossover point and slope. What may work well as a crossover point and slope with one driver may not with another.

Sent from mobile.
 

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**** thats a lot of information. i dont think i am mentally capable of grasping all of that or if what i just read in any way applies to me. when i get some spare time this will come in for some nice reading material lol thanks
 

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I really, really want to do this when I get a Cruze in the spring. The Silver Flute/Vifa combo seems good to me, but for some reason I feel wary about going with drivers so inexpensive. Can these really sound awesome? I know most of the speaker's sound comes from installation (which I will be doing deadening), I just feel like it can't POSSIBLY be this easy. I've always been told more expensive is obviously better. This is especially because the Vifa tweeters combined don't even cost $35.

That being said, I have learned a ton from reading the old SQ thread and applied some of it to my current car stereo setup. I must say it's making me a believer, I just feel that it can't be this easy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 · (Edited)
I really, really want to do this when I get a Cruze in the spring. The Silver Flute/Vifa combo seems good to me, but for some reason I feel wary about going with drivers so inexpensive. Can these really sound awesome? I know most of the speaker's sound comes from installation (which I will be doing deadening), I just feel like it can't POSSIBLY be this easy. I've always been told more expensive is obviously better. This is especially because the Vifa tweeters combined don't even cost $35.

That being said, I have learned a ton from reading the old SQ thread and applied some of it to my current car stereo setup. I must say it's making me a believer, I just feel that it can't be this easy.
These are raw drivers, not drivers that have a ton of marketing money dumped into them, like HAT and JL Audio. You will spend 5x the money to get the same quality in the car audio world. When you deal with raw drivers, you have to know what you're looking at, because there is no marketing BS to tell you otherwise. If you go into the car audio branded parts, how do you know what speakers to buy? Reviews based on inexperienced installers or people who follow the "throw more parts at it" mantra of car audio? Marketing hype? You were told to buy more expensive parts because those making the recommendations had no clue what the speakers would sound like, and were hoping that the more expensive parts would sound better.

I go by frequency response measurements, harmonic distortion measurements, T/S parameters, and the raw capabilities of a driver. In that regard, I know the capabilities of these drivers. It's inexpensive because the miniDSP is a massive bargain. The 4-way version of the miniDSP is $300, and it does the same thing (actually it does FAR better) than the $800 Audison Bit One. That is; if you wanted only a car audio label.

When you work with raw data and know how to interpret it (which I do as I design, voice, and build home theater speakers), you can get FAR more for FAR less money. I have heard home theater speakers that use drivers that there exist no equal for in the car audio world. Of course, car audio companies know this, which is why they don't publish harmonic distortion measurements and rarely publish frequency response charts. Those that do provide FR charts smooth and fudge the numbers to make their products look better because they know people have no clue what they're looking at anyway. When was the last time you were able to find the T/S parameters of a non-subwoofer driver you looked at with a car audio label?

I will be honest, it's not really that easy, because you have to know what you're looking for and you have to know how to interpret the data. That said, I've done all the hard work and left you with two options to make it VERY easy. I've taken the measurements, tuned the time alignment, and pretty much provided you and everyone else here the tune files (which are a product of over 20 hours of tuning and measuring) to allow you to achieve world-class sound. I wish I could provide more options for drivers, but my budget doesn't allow me to. Perhaps I should set up a donation link for those who use my designs to fund my research for other combinations of drivers.

Welcome to CruzeTalk. This is how we do things around here.
 

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These are raw drivers, not drivers that have a ton of marketing money dumped into them, like HAT and JL Audio. You will spend 5x the money to get the same quality in the car audio world. When you deal with raw drivers, you have to know what you're looking at, because there is no marketing BS to tell you otherwise. If you go into the car audio branded parts, how do you know what speakers to buy? Reviews based on inexperienced installers or people who follow the "throw more parts at it" mantra of car audio? Marketing hype? You were told to buy more expensive parts because those making the recommendations had no clue what the speakers would sound like, and were hoping that the more expensive parts would sound better.

I go by frequency response measurements, harmonic distortion measurements, T/S parameters, and the raw capabilities of a driver. In that regard, I know the capabilities of these drivers. It's inexpensive because the miniDSP is a massive bargain. The 4-way version of the miniDSP is $300, and it does the same thing (actually it does FAR better) than the $800 Audison Bit One. That is; if you wanted only a car audio label.

When you work with raw data and know how to interpret it (which I do as I design, voice, and build home theater speakers), you can get FAR more for FAR less money. I have heard home theater speakers that use drivers that there exist no equal for in the car audio world. Of course, car audio companies know this, which is why they don't publish harmonic distortion measurements and rarely publish frequency response charts. Those that do provide FR charts smooth and fudge the numbers to make their products look better because they know people have no clue what they're looking at anyway. When was the last time you were able to find the T/S parameters of a non-subwoofer driver you looked at with a car audio label?

I will be honest, it's not really that easy, because you have to know what you're looking for and you have to know how to interpret the data. That said, I've done all the hard work and left you with two options to make it VERY easy. I've taken the measurements, tuned the time alignment, and pretty much provided you and everyone else here the tune files (which are a product of over 20 hours of tuning and measuring) to allow you to achieve world-class sound. I wish I could provide more options for drivers, but my budget doesn't allow me to. Perhaps I should set up a donation link for those who use my designs to fund my research for other combinations of drivers.

Welcome to CruzeTalk. This is how we do things around here.
At the least, I want to say thank you. It's just difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that the drivers can cost so little and sound so good. From what I've seen on this board, you definitely know what you are talking about. I liked the pictures and step by step you had on how to install the MLV and CCF in the door, too. I've never deadened anything before. It's people like you that make me unafraid to try to tackle a project like this on my own.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
At the least, I want to say thank you. It's just difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that the drivers can cost so little and sound so good. From what I've seen on this board, you definitely know what you are talking about. I liked the pictures and step by step you had on how to install the MLV and CCF in the door, too. I've never deadened anything before. It's people like you that make me unafraid to try to tackle a project like this on my own.
You're welcome.

I'll challenge you to buy the drivers first. Just do it, and you'll immediately see what I mean. You'll get the tweeters and you'll notice they have neodymium motors (like most compact tweeters) and then you'll see a heatsink. A HEATSINK! For a $17 tweeter!

Then you'll look at the Silver Flutes. Wool? Who the heck makes cones out of paper and wool fiber?! Well, guys who want to hear every last detail. You'll get the box and you'll wonder why the heck it's so heavy. You'll open the box and you'll think you're looking at subwoofers. You want to know how big the motors on those Silver Flutes are? Massive. Silver Flutes are on the right.





You might as well call these 6.5" subwoofers with a motor that big! Show me a single car audio driver with such a huge motor and such a low moving mass. I'll bet you can't find one. Once you buy them and hold them, and realize that on top of all this, they have a cast alloy frame instead of a cheap stamped steel frame, you will make this face and wonder how the heck they can produce this driver for only $30.



That's the magic of raw drivers. Finding the indisputable best bang for the buck anywhere. Jaw-dropping sound.

If the car audio world goes from 1-10, I kick it up to 100. I mean seriously...where else have you ever seen someone install two 18" subs in a compact car to reproduce the chest-pounding effect you get from standing in the front stage of a rock concert, all while keeping 75% of the available trunk space?



To be fair, Matt Borgardt does it too, but he also used to be the lead designer for Image Dynamics subwoofers. The man taught me a lot of what I know about subwoofers.

Sounds like you'll have a really fun install ahead of you.
 

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Speaking of which, I saw you mentioned the IB install of those 2 18" subs, and I NEVER found pictures of it. Did you ever get that installed along with the second MiniDSP?

I just can't believe that you put the MiniDSP and DC Isolator under the center console without it mounted. I'd constantly be thinking about it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Speaking of which, I saw you mentioned the IB install of those 2 18" subs, and I NEVER found pictures of it. Did you ever get that installed along with the second MiniDSP?

I just can't believe that you put the MiniDSP and DC Isolator under the center console without it mounted. I'd constantly be thinking about it!
Haha, I updated the above post. You can see the pictures there. To be fair, that's an identical copy of my install that I did in Smurfenstein's car when he came by to visit. I guess he couldn't stand not having two 18s in his car as well, so I set up the exact same subwoofers with the same amp. He's been making jaws drop ever since.

I didn't get the second miniDSP running yet. Just not enough time.

To be fair, I did stick a piece of velcro to them and I did wrap them in polyfill sheets so they would be padded and wouldn't move around. I could have done it a bit better, I'll be honest, but you'd never know sitting in the car, and it sounds unbelievable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·

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If what you're saying is true, you're about to smash my world apart like the first time I heard old school speakers! Your posts specifically have given me "the bug" again and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. I plan on doing it right this time now that I'm not a 17 year old kid. I'll be doing it your way, hopefully keeping everything hidden and saving the whole trunk.
 
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