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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
Just to clarify things here a bit, solid engine mounts will not increase your power or torque to the wheels, all they do is keep the drivetrain from bouncing around turing large changes in drivetrain torque output.

Average people, even those who drive fairly agressively on the street, are usually not good candidates for solid engine mounts... the increase in NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness) is very noticeable, while improvements in drivetrain responsiveness are often not (especially with an automatic transmission).

If you're having problems with wheel hop or are driving your (manual transmission) car regularly on a road course, then stiffening the engine mounts can be worthwhile. Other than that, improvements are often debatable. NVH is guaranteed to increase over stock levels.

I'm not poo-pooing solid mounts (they definitely have their place), I'm just trying to clarify why you should or shouldn't buy them. There seemed to be an "air" of suggesting that these would increase power and torque at the wheels, which is not true.

Correct, these will not increase engine flywheel torque; what it will allow you to do is more efficiently transfer that engine torque to the wheels.

Meaning in real world road conditions you will have more torque to the wheels (due to better transfer efficiency), rather than loosing it through the drivetrain “flopping around.” The engine flopping/moving around takes torque, which these will not allow this movement.


They also reduce wheel hop if present.
They also offer you to "feel" how the car is reacting/feeling, to know how hard you are pushing the vehicle. (Better responce)

Good reference sites are Energy Suspension or Prothane. They do not make products for the Cruze, but have good information on what poly/solid mounts offer; which in re cap has been stated above by us.
 

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Just to clarify things here a bit, solid engine mounts will not increase your power or torque to the wheels, all they do is keep the drivetrain from bouncing around turing large changes in drivetrain torque output.

Average people, even those who drive fairly agressively on the street, are usually not good candidates for solid engine mounts... the increase in NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness) is very noticeable, while improvements in drivetrain responsiveness are often not (especially with an automatic transmission).

If you're having problems with wheel hop or are driving your (manual transmission) car regularly on a road course, then stiffening the engine mounts can be worthwhile. Other than that, improvements are often debatable. NVH is guaranteed to increase over stock levels.

I'm not poo-pooing solid mounts (they definitely have their place), I'm just trying to clarify why you should or shouldn't buy them. There seemed to be an "air" of suggesting that these would increase power and torque at the wheels, which is not true.
Very well put!

I'd like to add that these mounts will be a must for anyone who intends to make a lot of power. If you're planning to push your car near double the factory hp or more, your stock mounts are going to cut it.

I'f you're only adding a couple bolt on performance parts and only daily drive the car and never plan on tracking it these mounts might not be for you...
 

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I would be interested if there is going to be one for the 1.8l NA models...
 

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Correct, these will not increase engine flywheel torque; what it will allow you to do is more efficiently transfer that engine torque to the wheels.

Meaning in real world road conditions you will have more torque to the wheels (due to better transfer efficiency), rather than loosing it through the drivetrain “flopping around.” The engine flopping/moving around takes torque, which these will not allow this movement.


They also reduce wheel hop if present.
They also offer you to "feel" how the car is reacting/feeling, to know how hard you are pushing the vehicle. (Better responce)

Good reference sites are Energy Suspension or Prothane. They do not make products for the Cruze, but have good information on what poly/solid mounts offer; which in re cap has been stated above by us.
Your statememt that I highlighted is not true.

I looked at Energy Suspension's site and they mention nothing about improved torque "transmission", just the known benefits of greater strength and possibly controling wheel hop on hard launches and shifts.

Prothane's website contains the following statement:

"Our mounts are designed to limit unwanted movement and control torque thereby putting more power to the wheels and also reducing the chance of breakage."

The highlighted portion of their statement is also not true.

The only way an engine mount (more precisely on a FWD car, a DRIVETRAIN mount) could increase power or torque output to the wheels is if the OEM mounting system was allowing the C.V. shaft output ends to move significantly far enough that the transmission angle through the shafts was increased to such a degree that the C.V. shaft was becoming ineficient. On this possiblilty, one must also consider that the most popular drivetrain mount replacements are the ones on TOP that are visible with the hood raised, and these upper mounts are not the ones controlling the location of the bottom of the drivetrain where the C.V. shaft outputs are and would therefore be ineffective in that case.

Your statememt about the driveline moving around and absorbing energy that could otherwise be used at the wheels is also false. When at full throttle the drivelin will rock back on the mounts, yes, but once the stock mounts have deflected the drivetrain just sits there in one place until the throttle is released. It is not constantly moving around absorbing energy.

Once again, stiffer urethane and solid engine mounts definitely have their place, but for the average driver (even most spirited drivers) on the street they are not necessary and will, in most cases, do more harm than good when considering the added NVH they will introduce to the vehicle. This is especially true for vehicles with automatic transmissions as they effectively "de-couple" the driver from drivetrain response even further.

If a vehicle is tuned and making enough power to threaten the strength or compliance of the stock mounts (rare), or the vehicle experiences wheel hop on launch or shifts, or the vehicle is raced on a road course often (with a manual transmission), then stiffening the drivetrain mounts may be effective.

Barring the C.V. shaft angle argument I stated above, no drivetrain mount is capable of improving engine torque or power to the wheels. Period.
 

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I was looking around under the hood today and noticed that the front lower trans mount has holes through the rubber making it an ideal for a urethane mount insert.

Aaron, i know you'll understand what i'm talking about but for those who don't a mount insert sandwiches into an oem mount like a puzzle piece. Inserts take a lot of slop out of the stock mounts without being as hardcore as a solid replacemnet mount.

If TTR would make these i'd surely buy them. The full solid mounts are just a little too hardcore for my needs...
 

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^ Agree 100%. Inserts basically fill the voids in the OEM mount to reduce the amount of "free-play".

Also, these inserts are generally easy to swap in and out so you could put them in for a day at the track and remove them for your daily driving if they increase NVH above what you're comfortable with. This is generally a good solution for the average enthusiast.
 

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Barring the C.V. shaft angle argument I stated above, no drivetrain mount is capable of improving engine torque or power to the wheels. Period.
WRONG
I had a worn out lower engine mount on my 2.2 ecotec(dog bone shaped, also called a torque-strut) & decided to replace it. First thing I noticed after I changed it was INCREASED THROTTLE RESPONSE! according to you this is not possible.

I drive my car for MPG, so I rarely floor it, with the new mount installed I can use an even lighter feather foot when driving. This is because with a worn out mount I was basicly always driving in the engine mounts rubber movement, I would even say I had to press the peddle down twice as far before for the same throttle response.


So in short you are correct there is NO INCREASE of torque at full thottle(since the mount only moves initially when you first floor it). but in part throttle/ feather foot situations INITIAL torque is increased since your no longer fighting the mounts movement. If you drive with a light foot new or solid mounts can help improve your MPG numbers.
 

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...the mechanical "torque" movement of the engine/transmission assembly is not the same as the "torque" output the engine produces, but it *is* a reaction to the engines' torque output.

...it's similar to the "torque" reaction during a hard drag race launch that wants to "lift" the front wheels off the ground of a RWD vehicle.
 

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spacedout said:
OK, where do I start...

spacedout said:
First thing I noticed after I changed it was INCREASED THROTTLE RESPONSE! according to you this is not possible.
"Throttle Response" has nothing to do with the amount of torque your engine is producing or how efficiently it is putting that torque to the ground. TR refers to how quickly your right foot is rewarded with a response from the engine.

In your case you could argue that the drivetrain was more "responsive" because the split-second delay it took to compress the worn out bushings in the torque strut was reduced with the newer and stiffer bushings. I will give you that.

spacedout said:
...with the new mount installed I can use an even lighter feather foot when driving. This is because with a worn out mount I was basicly always driving in the engine mounts rubber movement, I would even say I had to press the peddle down twice as far before for the same throttle response.
???

Are you claiming that for the same amount of engine output you had to open the throttle TWICE as much before replacing your worn out torque strut? If this is your claim then, I'm sorry, the men in the white lab coats are on their way to pick you up...


spacedout said:
So in short you are correct there is NO INCREASE of torque at full thottle(since the mount only moves initially when you first floor it). but in part throttle/ feather foot situations INITIAL torque is increased since your no longer fighting the mounts movement. If you drive with a light foot new or solid mounts can help improve your MPG numbers.
So if you agree that there is no torque increase with new vs. old mounts at full throttle, why would you think part throttle was any different? Once the drivetrain has deflected the mount it will come to a resting point and stay there until the amount of torque output changes... I don't understand your argument here.

As far as helping your MPG goes, there are only two scenarios I can think of where this could be possible:

1) Engine Knock Retard. If the torque strut was so worn out as to allow metal-to-metal contact (i.e. completely disintegrated) the resulting vibrations and noise transmitted into the drivetrain could be picked up by the knock sensor and be confused for engine knocking. This would cause the ECM to pull timing in an effort to eliminate the knock and would decrease the engine's efficiency.

I doubt this could be the case unless there was litterally no rubber left in the strut, since when you are just cruising along at a set speed the torque output of the drivetrain is relatively low and would cause relatively low deflection against the mounts.

2) CV Joint Alignment. I covered this in my previous post:

Blue Angel said:
The only way an engine mount (more precisely on a FWD car, a DRIVETRAIN mount) could increase power or torque output to the wheels is if the OEM mounting system was allowing the C.V. shaft output ends to move significantly far enough that the transmission angle through the shafts was increased to such a degree that the C.V. shaft was becoming ineficient. On this possiblilty, one must also consider that the most popular drivetrain mount replacements are the ones on TOP that are visible with the hood raised, and these upper mounts are not the ones controlling the location of the bottom of the drivetrain where the C.V. shaft outputs are and would therefore be ineffective in that case.
Once again I don't believe this could make a case for improved efficiency for the same reasons I stated in 1).

I think you have "percieved" an improvement (or multiple improvements) based on what you are feeling as improved "Throttle Response". That's fine, but I doubt the validity of most of your claims as there are many sound technical arguments against them.

You can't say I'm WRONG simply because of your driving impressions... you have to back it up with some sort of valid technical argument.
 

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...keep it civil guys, and you can continue your discussion here.

...if you can't, take it "off line" to continue your discussing between yourselves.
 

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Hi TurboTechRacing. Looks like I'm interested with that solid upper engine mount. But me and my friend is still deciding about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
1.4L one will be available for shipment in about 2 weeks, we should have a photo in about 1 week of the test/prototype one :)

We will then see if the 1.4L and the 1.8L are the same, or if we need to manufacture/design a 1.8L one :)
 

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Any chance they will be available for the 1.8L? :\

Or give me a darn turbo already! :D
...the Opel (and Holden Cruze) have 1.8L turbo engines already, maybe something from them will retro-fit?
 

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i saw a bigg turbo on craigslist for 400 bucks it was biggggggg was 7in outlet was off a diesel
edit found a t3/t4 for 125 brand new gonna go pick it up tonight
Good luck, you get what you pay for...

Also, pretty much any t3/t4 is going to be too big for your needs.
 
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