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GMH8R

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2011 Cruze Eco 6MT 2003 SVT Focus
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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have a 2011 1.4L Eco MT, and used to have a P0420 code. Despite many threads saying otherwise, P0420 does not always indicate a bad catalytic converter. I wanted to discuss the diagnostic process I used and give hope to any Cruze owner with a recurring P0420 code. To diagnose, I used a cheap amazon smoke machine (~$180) and the Torque app on my phone with a bluetooth OBD-II reader to read O2 sensor data. To make a long story short, it was a vacuum leak.

1. First and foremost, I made sure the engine was running correctly, by ensuring there were no misfires and that the injectors and spark plugs were firing as they should. I actually changed the spark plugs and coil pack, but the code still returned.

2. I used a smoke machine to pump smoke directly into the exhaust pipe and looked for any exhaust leaks (especially between the two O2 sensors and around the catalytic converter). I didn't have any exhaust leaks, but they can easily trigger a p0420 code by changing O2 sensor readings.

3. I used a smoke machine to pump smoke directly into the air intake to look for any intake leaks. Air intake leaks can also cause a P0420 code by letting excess air (running lean) into the exhaust and changing O2 sensor readings. In my case, there were 3 intake leaks: One where the intercooler pipe mates with the throttle body (loose hose clamp) and two where the intercooler pipes attach to the intercooler.

4. If you have completed steps 1-3, and you are running good with no intake or exhaust leaks, then you should remove the catalytic converter and visually inspect the inside honeycomb material for damage, blockage, or severe discoloration. If the catalytic converter looks bad, then you have your culprit. If the catalytic converter looks fine, then you need to reinstall the converter and use a scan tool to look at the O2 sensor readings.

5. Check your O2 Sensor readings. After the car is fully warm, sensor 2 should remain relatively flat around 0.4-0.9V while sensor 1 should switch constantly between 0.1V and 0.9V. Check to make sure this holds true at various engine speeds from idle to 3000RPM. If you see sensor 2 switching voltages like sensor 1, then it is likely your catalytic converter has truly failed.

6. If you have finished the diagnosis, and confirmed you have a bad catalytic converter, you must ask yourself why the converter failed (or it will happen again!). Catalytic converters rarely fail on their own, and usually fail due to engine oil/coolant consumption, PCV problems, excessive misfiring, etc. Essentially, a bad catalytic converter is usually the result of another engine problem sending contaminants into your exhaust system. So before replacing your cat, fix your engine so you won't ever have this problem again.

Hopefully this step-by-step process helps you avoid an expensive repair.
- A GM Engineer

UPDATE: 2/3/23
After fixing my vacuum leaks, p0420 stayed off for ~ 4 weeks. I thought my converter was fine and I was in the clear... Wrong! The p0420 code has returned but will only be thrown in specific situations. When the ambient temps are <20F (Really Cold Conditions) AND when I am idling frequently, or in stop-and-go traffic. I have gone through the entire diagnostic process, and I have determined that my catalytic converter is "borderline bad".

I bought my Cruze in 11/22 and it was running very poorly due to neglected PCV system failure (oil everywhere, running lean, misfires). Despite doing extensive engine repair and making sure it is running well, the damage has already been done to my converter. The efficiency of my converter is below the computer's threshold in certain conditions, but still works just fine in 90% of my driving. Since it still works most of the time, and since Michigan does not have emissions testing, I have decided to keep my borderline catalytic converter going and erase the code when it comes up.
 
Despite many threads saying otherwise, P0420 does not always indicate a bad catalytic converter.
Totally agree. I have a worn cat at 200K mi. due to previous engine issues. To further clarify, from my own experience with p0420, the "catalyst efficiency" can be made to increase and exceed the threshold by which the p0420 code is set by correcting the engine issues. When monitoring my engine using Torque Pro ($5.00) and an OBD2 bluetooth adaptor ($35.00), I can track the pid "catalyst efficiency" in the "test results" tab. When my engine performance or driving habits contribute to a normal above threshold cat, the listed efficiency range is .35 to 4. My cat is usually .465 to .6, or above the .35 threshold, ie no p0420 code.
When the 420 code and cel is set, the listed efficiency range changes to .5 - 4 and my cat's efficiency has typically dropped to .3, or below the original .35 threshold. My guess for the increased threshold is to force a repair so that the numbers don't bounce back and forth without a resolution to the problem.
The code pops on from my engine's performance during excessive idling, sitting in traffic for hours, and once when I taught my daughter how to park for hours in slow motion;) The code happens a couple times a year.
Although my cat's .3 will increase to .465 just by resuming normal around town or highway speed driving over the course of several drive cycles, it will not exceed the .5 threshold necessary to keep the cel off. So I erase the code and wait for several drive cycles to once again have a "ready" catalyst on my emissions ready tab because the range returns to .35 - 4. And my cat number gradually increases to .6 until the next occurrence.
It is a game until I successfully repair the engine issue. The car runs great and the numbers look normal except under those seldom "extreme" conditions.
Too many words but my point is also, don't buy a new catalytic converter to turn off the p0420 cel without fixing your engine or discovering the cause first. New year's resolution, I gotta getta a smoke machine...
imho
cruzetalk rocks
 
Dealing with this right now. Have the p0420 but when looking at the voltage readings for the downstream sensor they look normal. I’ve replaced the corrugated hose, the valve cover, and done a pcv kit. Plugs are fairly new. I do get an occasional p0299 but I’m pretty sure my wastegate hangs from time to time. 220k miles original turbo. Do you think that could be causing the p0420? Next step I’m going to check my intercooler and throttle body connections as well as replace the downstream 02 sensor. It’s also original. Might take the cat off and look at it.
 
Discussion starter · #4 · (Edited)
I would go through the entire process I outlined before you declare it's a bad catalytic converter. Also, read the first reply by @12ecofamilycar, because we're both in the same situation. P0420 is a fickle code because even if you've fixed the engine problems that were damaging your converter, the "cat efficiency" may not reach the threshold the computer needs it to, and the CEL will come back during engine-cold and idling situations. At 220k miles, and if you only recently fixed the PCV problems, I would not be surprised if your converter is also borderline-bad and the computer will continue to throw P0420.
 
I did read it and but after I read your post I went back and reread and I think I understand now about the range. Didn’t pick up on that the first time. It all seems to make sense. My freeze frame data is always at idle when the light comes on. But driving on the highway the voltage is a steady .675 volts or so. Rises and falls as you drive but looks otherwise normal. I even looked at my wife’s suburban data for comparison which has no CEL on. Makes sense that at idle when pulling the most vacuum you’d see readings that are off if you have a leak. I did just put the car up and check for exhaust leaks but found none. I did the pcv about 5 years ago. I will follow the steps in this thread and hopefully I find a big vacuum leak.
 
Discussion starter · #6 · (Edited)
UPDATE: 2/3/23
After fixing my vacuum leaks, p0420 stayed off for ~ 4 weeks. I thought my converter was fine and I was in the clear... Wrong! The p0420 code has returned but will only be thrown in specific situations. When the ambient temps are <20F (Really Cold Conditions) AND when I am idling frequently, or in stop-and-go traffic. I have gone through the entire diagnostic process, and I have determined that my catalytic converter is "borderline bad".

I bought my Cruze in Nov 2022 and it was running very poorly due to neglected PCV system failure (oil everywhere, running lean, misfires). Despite doing extensive engine repair and making sure it is running well, the damage has already been done to my converter. The efficiency of my converter is below the computer's threshold in certain conditions, but still works just fine in 90% of my driving. Since it still works most of the time, and since Michigan does not have emissions testing, I have decided to keep my borderline catalytic converter going and erase the code when it comes up.
 
Just to add to the knowledge, The PCM tests the conveter 5 times before it makes a decision pass/fail. The pid for the test has to be set to active / inactive, while you are sitting there with your foot on the brake. Then it will set the test counter up one (1-5). Part of the test crteria are fully warmed engine, less than 1200 rpm, no more than 1.24 miles per hour. Now, we see why driving in traffic will have a tendency to set the code sooner. I work for many shops. I will diagnose one problem, give it to them to fix, and they will cause another problem, leaks, AM parts. Anything under the sun can cause a p0420, just hope that it sees the other issue before the 420. Once it sets the 420, it goes into some other defunct mode and rarely gives me any other codes. That may be because they aren't my cars driving them every day. It is well worth the money to buy a smoke machine. this is similar to the one I use. cheap and works great.
They won't let me give any links, no biggie, go to amazon and type smoke machine, look at spending 90.00, has lots of adapters, the best being one with a blow up bladder that allow smoke to pass through the middle (looks like a portion of a blood pressure checker). You will use for every p0171/4 code in the future. Hope this helps.

HTH
Mike
 
Just to add to the knowledge, The PCM tests the conveter 5 times before it makes a decision pass/fail. The pid for the test has to be set to active / inactive, while you are sitting there with your foot on the brake. Then it will set the test counter up one (1-5). Part of the test crteria are fully warmed engine, less than 1200 rpm, no more than 1.24 miles per hour. Now, we see why driving in traffic will have a tendency to set the code sooner. I work for many shops. I will diagnose one problem, give it to them to fix, and they will cause another problem, leaks, AM parts. Anything under the sun can cause a p0420, just hope that it sees the other issue before the 420. Once it sets the 420, it goes into some other defunct mode and rarely gives me any other codes. That may be because they aren't my cars driving them every day. It is well worth the money to buy a smoke machine. this is similar to the one I use. cheap and works great.
They won't let me give any links, no biggie, go to amazon and type smoke machine, look at spending 90.00, has lots of adapters, the best being one with a blow up bladder that allow smoke to pass through the middle (looks like a portion of a blood pressure checker). You will use for every p0171/4 code in the future. Hope this helps.

HTH
Mike
Wecome to the forum! Say hi in the new member thread. Thanks for the addl 420 info
 
Dealing with this right now. Have the p0420 but when looking at the voltage readings for the downstream sensor they look normal. I’ve replaced the corrugated hose, the valve cover, and done a pcv kit. Plugs are fairly new. I do get an occasional p0299 but I’m pretty sure my wastegate hangs from time to time. 220k miles original turbo. Do you think that could be causing the p0420? Next step I’m going to check my intercooler and throttle body connections as well as replace the downstream 02 sensor. It’s also original. Might take the cat off and look at it.
Basically, ANY time the voltage (I don't know about supermodern cars with new kinds of O2 sensors which measure amps) in the downstream (after the cat) O2 sensor runs HIGHER (more pollution=less oxygen is the general assumption) than the voltage from the upstream (exhaust manifold) O2 sensor, then the computer throws P0420. That's it. The "default" translation is "reduced cat efficiency." But lots of other things can cause it, and almost always do. You really need a code reader that captured the "freeze frame" data linked to the moment P0420 was thrown, or better yet, one of the new Bluetooth modules that capture LIVE data. BOTH O2 sensors should have read more than zero (NOT 0.0) and less than 1 volt. If EITHER sensor read 0.0 or more than 1 volt, the problem is the sensor is either dirty (high voltage) or burnt out (0.0 V) So, and this is very common in any engine that is not burning oil and clogging the cat, if the manifold O2 sensor is burned out, then ANY voltage, even "perfect" (about 0.5 V) downstream will throw P0420. Yes, there are codes that are supposed to indicate burnt out O2 sensors, but they do NOT work "directly." They are also logical deductions based on other readings. If you can live scan O2 sensor data, then the upstream (manifold) sensor should fluctuate pretty rapidly between 0.3ish to 1.0ish volts, and the downstream sensor should be prrreettyy steady at about 0.3ish to 0.7ish volts. But LOTS of things can cause unusual readings.
 
I did read it and but after I read your post I went back and reread and I think I understand now about the range. Didn’t pick up on that the first time. It all seems to make sense. My freeze frame data is always at idle when the light comes on. But driving on the highway the voltage is a steady .675 volts or so. Rises and falls as you drive but looks otherwise normal. I even looked at my wife’s suburban data for comparison which has no CEL on. Makes sense that at idle when pulling the most vacuum you’d see readings that are off if you have a leak. I did just put the car up and check for exhaust leaks but found none. I did the pcv about 5 years ago. I will follow the steps in this thread and hopefully I find a big vacuum leak.
Did the upstream O2 read lower than the downstream? Or even 0.0? That's pretty much the reason for any P0420. ONE possible cause is dirty or clogged cat. But the puter expects less pollution (lower voltage) after the cat than before it. Freeze frame can be misleading, because upstream sensor normally fluctuates rapidly. "Live" data scanners (about $60 online for Bluetooth versions for phones) are better.
 
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