Manny - you have written passionately about the factory fill for the LUZ engine, the AC Delco Dexos2 oil, and oils meeting similar standards such as those from BMW, M-B and VW.

Andrei - you have offered to supply a European formulation of Amsoil to our community.

Kory - motor oils are one of your areas of interest and specialization.

So everyone, come on down! Let the discussion be vigorous and benefit our current and future diesel brethren.

 

I am disappointed that Amsoil isn't on that list, even though they have an oil that exceeds Dexos2 specifications. Either that list has not been updated, or Amsoil hasn't bothered to pay for the certification yet.

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I am disappointed that Amsoil isn't on that list, even though they have an oil that exceeds Dexos2 specifications. Either that list has not been updated, or Amsoil hasn't bothered to pay for the certification yet.

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List is dated May 13, 2013.

I've got nothing against their oil but I don't ever remember Amsoil officially making the two other old GM certifications either. These were GM6094M and GM4817M that were last published in 2008. Then as now there were oils that claimed to meet or exceed the GM spec but didn't actually carry it.

EDIT: Yep, here's the 2008 version of GM Registered Products and Amsoil is not present.

http://www.andersonperformance.net/oil_lists_02_2008.pdf

 

I can understand paying a reasonable one time fee to get ones' oil certified, but extorting royalties is another thing. What if every car company decided that oil companies would have to pay for their special label. Next will be sparkplugs, and a new more expensive royalty for Dex-cool 2, and a royalty for cabin air filters, and $.15/gallon to get the new GM global top tier DEXFUEL label. Still trying to figure out how much Ford gets paid for the advertising of BP on their fuel caps. Maybe consumers need to say enough with passing along these fees to the end user too. With all the testing and standards associations around the world, and the old business of labeling meeting this or that brand's requirement should be enough. Everybody is looking how to create new revenue streams and to monetize everything at the expense of the loyal customer. "F" that! Had enough. Rant over....for now.

 

I agree about the licensing. It is one thing to set forth specification and to have a fee for a testing program to verify compliance with the spec. But charging per liter sold is insane. Especially since the oil will probably meet multiple manufacturer specs. Why should GM get a fee for oil used in another brand car. I plan on using Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 which is ACEA compliant. However, Amsoil, Castrol, Shell and many other manufacturers make an acceptable oil that is not Dexos2 compliant but meeting the specs of ACEA 3 or better.


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I agree entirely.

List is dated May 13, 2013.

I've got nothing against their oil but I don't ever remember Amsoil officially making the two other old GM certifications either. These were GM6094M and GM4817M that were last published in 2008. Then as now there were oils that claimed to meet or exceed the GM spec but didn't actually carry it.

EDIT: Yep, here's the 2008 version of GM Registered Products and Amsoil is not present.

http://www.andersonperformance.net/oil_lists_02_2008.pdf

I have zero doubt that Amsoil by a long shot exceeds specifications. It outperforms retail Mobil 1 products in all relevant categories and tests by a significant margin. I can post the tests if anyone needs to see them.

The whole warranty issue is a moot point for me since my car will never suffer an oil-related failure with Amsoil. That's the peace of mind you have using the best oil in the industry regardless of specification.

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Some ones been paying attention .

 

Okay - let's get serious for a moment. GM charges a one time licensing fee of $1,000 per product certification and $0.09 for every quart that carries their certification.

If you can't afford an extra 45 cents per oil change then you really should be driving something else.

Same thing goes for the Valvolines of this world that cry poor and won't pay the fee. My guess is that it's costing them way more in ink just to explain why they don't carry any certification.

 

Article talking about this situation and the certifications costs. They might be moving to a marketshare percentage, if they have not already.
Dexos 1- interesting reading

It is about principle and nipping this thing in the bud before it becomes a standard that all manufacturers start doing. Lets see, 25 manufacturers with their own certification system, charging royalties in line with GM on each bottle of oil. Geesh, this Super duper AMSBIL 1 extended life doflippey oil made of a blend of group 4, 5, and Area 51 top secret group 9 oils does not have the Tata sticker on it. Shucky darn, I just screwed up the warranty on my brand new Jaguiar Type magnuson-moss redline edition in British racing green, even though the other 24 certifications only cost an extra $2.16/qt, but still was not good enough. :grin:
Edit:
Let me reiterate, I am all for certs and specs, and the ability for a manufacturer to deny warranty claims if fluids that do not meet those specs are used. I have a problem with the royalty or % of profits in perpetuity. It is a devil at the crossroads, shark tank, sign on the dotted line for your soul kind of thing that I depise.

 

Dexos 1 and Dexos 2 are Licensing Standards Presented to the Engine Oil Manufacturers by GM and That is all they are . ,,,..,,,

I would think that it is my Educated assertion to utilize a specified or comparable product to lubricate My GM built Vehicle .

 

If we want to pull hairs, Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 isn't dexos2 approved either then. Just 0W-40.

 

It's not pulling hairs. It's a fact that Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 is not a Dexos2 licensed product.

It it may very well meet or exceed the standard but Mobil has not had it tested by GM or paid the licensing fee.

 

I have no doubt that Amsoil offers an excellent product. As I've already posted on this forum an objective study demonstrated that Amsoil offers the industry's best performing air filter, and one of its best oil filters.

Why Amsoil does not invest the $1,000 to Dexos certify its oils is a question that only they can answer. Surely their sales would increase if they did.

It occurs to me that some proponents of direct-marketed brands (Amway, Avon, Mary Kay, NuSkin, Tuperware, etc.) posses a deep faith in their respective products and whose advocacy may at times challenge even our own measure of Cruze enthusiasm.

Now back to Dexos2 and equivalent motor oils...

 

GM established its own motor oil standards to exceed those set by the API. These standards were put in place to first protect the vehicle operator from unnecessary failure and second to protect GM from unnecessary warranty costs. Other manufacturers (BMW, M-B, VW) have also put in place their own standards.

Dexos1 and Dexos2 are just GM's current standards for motor oils. The difference with past practice is that GM licenses the use of the Dexos logo. The Dexos logo is intended as an aid to the consumer to quickly identify an oil meeting the standard, rather than spinning the bottle around and reading the fine print. To protect the integrity of the process, GM charges a nominal fee for this, thereby preventing fly-by-night operators from making misleading claims to the consumer.

 

been using amsoil for years ,currently in my motorcycle, snowmobile, atv an will be in the cruze next week. case sitting on my bench 5w40 European mid saps meets dexos2 an acea3. friend of mine that I sell amsoil too will use no other oil in his race boat an I see his engines off season. where both mechanics by trade (myself 40 years) I don`t work for amsoil but their oil sure continues to work great for me!!

 

http://www.acdelco.com.au/PDFs/oils/Specs_ACDelco_5W30_Dexos2Diesel.pdf

http://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/pub/070308_ACEA_sequences_2007_LD_and_HD.pdf

http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/files/2012_ACEA_Oil_Sequences.pdf
ACEA C3 SAPS specifications:
Sulphated ash: = or <0.8
Phosphorus: = or >0.070, = or <0.090
Sulphur: = or <0.3
Also to consider ACEA A3/B4 specs, among others:
http://www.oilspecifications.org/ilsac.php

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

http://www.oilspecifications.org/api_eolcs.php
Issues are catalyst protection, and Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) protection. I do not think Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) system protection is much of an issue. Other issues would be about fuel economy additives in certain situations, especially when considering compatibility with wet clutches in motorcycles. These reliability or longevity protection concerns seems to come at the expense of long established engine protection additive levels. I feel in some respects we are going backwards.
The levels of SAPS going down usually means it is at the expense of engine protection, being that these things are byproducts of long established friction reducers, detergent and extreme pressure additives.
Trying to find exact numbers that GM and it's DEXOS 1 or 2 levels specifications are, is being a P.I.T.A. for me. All I can do is look what the other requirements are that it specifies.
None of these SAPS oil specifications should make much of a difference if the engine does not burn oil. I would think the more prevalent concern would be levels of sulphur in the diesel fuel.

 

So, if the Mobil 1 oil is of the wrong viscosity but certified as Dexos2, is it warranty compliant?

 

Any oils that meet or exceed the Dexos2 specification will not be able to be denied by GM for warranty work.

GM is required to prove that the oil you used is what caused a given failure. When it comes to high quality full synthetics, a failure will never occur as a result of the oil. The specification is designed to protect GM against those who think they can just dump conventional oil into their engines and hope for the best. Since the synthetic oil options from Amsoil and Mobil 1 are of vastly higher quality than the factory oil, someone using the factory oil will be far more likely to have an issue than you would.

Allow me to paint the picture I am trying to convey here. For example, GM fills our manual transmissions with an oil that does not lubricate our transmissions well and breaks down under heat and stress. It does not allow our synchros to function properly. We highly recommend Amsoil Synchromesh as the replacement, which vastly improves shifting quality and even alleviates to some degree a 1-2 shift grind that some people experience. Now, there is no doubt that Amsoil is the better fluid, but GM wants you to use their fluid. Say you had a manual transmission Cruze and used GM's fluid for 100k miles, and then your transmission blew a synchro at 120k miles. GM's liability of 100k miles would be satisfied and you would be out the cost of a rebuild. In hindsight, you'd look back and see that if you had used a better fluid, your problem could have been avoided.

Another example is related to Mazdaspeed 3 owners. A while back, Mazda filled those engines from the factory with conventional oil. That's conventional oil on a turbo engine! People were losing turbos left and right because the oil was of crap quality, so Mazda bumped it up to a synthetic oil. You can make the argument that we should use what the manufacturer recommends and just let them deal with the warranty repairs, but my argument is that if Mazda owners had just used a full synthetic oil from the start, premature turbo failure could have been avoided. As such, the warranty aspect never comes into play as the higher quality fluid will extend the life of your lubricated components beyond what the factory fluid is able to accomplish.

The bottom line is that people need to get over their fear of warranty claims. If you use a high quality synthetic oil and your engine has a failure, you can rest assured that the failure would have occurred with the factory fluid as well, and that other owners will also be experiencing the same failure, most likely sooner than you would. Always remember that by law in the United States, the manufacturer is required to prove that your "modification" caused a failure in order to deny warranty work. They cannot simply deny it on the basis of you not using their oil.

Use a high quality synthetic oil in your vehicle and stop worrying about what will happen with the warranty. Your using a higher quality oil than what was originally filled in your vehicle will not cause a mechanical failure.

 

I have one major caveat to what is being said, that I personally follow. Although some automatic transmissions, especially of older generations were good with multi-vehicle fluids, I believe that it is imperative to stick with exactly what it was designed for and no multi or universal fluids. I would apply this to CVT's and possibly DCT's too.
Manufacturers deny warranty all the time for wrong or universal transmission fluids. Then the company that did the exchange and or the manufacturer of the multivehicle transmission fluid might step up and cover the costs, while persuing the car manufacturer in court. Valvoline with it's Maxlife transmission fluid seems to have it's share of problems. This link below has a pdf that is really interesting about this. Also includes manuals of different car manufacturers like GM and Subaru and it's requirements for specific fluids. Subaru is clear to only use their engine oil with their new turbos.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/warrantyrules/00022-80832.pdf

 

Automatic transmission fluids are another one of those things. Some vehicles require a specific fill procedure, such as the new Toyota Tundras. You cannot fill it correctly yourself and you have to take it to a shop that has the Toyota fill machine for that specific transmission. I think it's stupid to force the owner to stay out of the maintenance process, but I digress.

With regard to what was said about certifications, I have no trouble recommending Amsoil almost universally for a very specific reasons: their products are superior. They are a special case in that they don't advertise heavily in the retail market and depend instead on independent dealers to sell their products. However, you will never find a single person saying a single bad thing about them (except in cases that can be easily narrowed down as user error), and that is for a good reason. Mobil 1 prides themselves in advertising that they make the unrivaled best fluid out there. Amsoil has tested and refuted this claim with their synthetic oils.

The way I look at it, if Amsoil outperforms Mobil 1 full synthetic in all aspects, across the board, then what do certifications mean for me? In a word, nothing. Should any dealership attempt to have an oil testing analysis taken of your car with Amsoil in it, they will likely be pleasantly surprised by how well the oil is holding up. As I said before, I don't promote and sell Amsoil because I'm a dealer; rather I chose to be a dealer because they have the best products on the market, and this is not based on reputation alone.

With regard to viscosity, my experience has been that it is far more dangerous to run a lower Viscosity than it is to run a higher one, and the difference in viscosity while hot between 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually quite minimal. This is not the case with the cold specification. I've had friends destroy engines by running too low of a viscosity (accidentally filling 5W-20 instead of 5W-30), but not the other way around. I personally run Rotella T6 5W-40 in my wife's car, which calls for 5W-30. Rotella T6 is very widely recommended on many automotive boards including the Maxima forums as an excellent and affordable alternative to other 5W-30 spec oils. Manny mentioned quite a few times that the difference in viscosity when comparing Diesel-spec 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually extremely minimal. I have personally verified this and in addition, I have also noticed that there is a significant variation in tested kinematic viscosity between oils of the exact same viscosity rating. As a result, the debate between whether to use 5W-30 or 5W-40 is a moot one in my opinion, especially when you consider that there are oils by several manufacturers that meet the Dexos2 specification that are advertised as 5W-40.

 

I have one major caveat to what is being said, that I personally follow. Although some automatic transmissions, especially of older generations were good with multi-vehicle fluids, I believe that it is imperative to stick with exactly what it was designed for and no multi or universal fluids. I would apply this to CVT's and possibly DCT's too.
Manufacturers deny warranty all the time for wrong or universal transmission fluids. Then the company that did the exchange and or the manufacturer of the multivehicle transmission fluid might step up and cover the costs, while persuing the car manufacturer in court. Valvoline with it's Maxlife transmission fluid seems to have it's share of problems. This link below has a pdf that is really interesting about this. Also includes manuals of different car manufacturers like GM and Subaru and it's requirements for specific fluids. Subaru is clear to only use their engine oil with their new turbos.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/warrantyrules/00022-80832.pdf

Why won't you be running the Mobil 1 ESP (5W-30)? I thought this oil was a Dexos2 equivalent?

 

I agree with Andrei. GM is primarily interested in seeing your car through the warranty period. Oil based engine failures are rare these days within the warranty period. From my understanding those failures that do occur are more often attributed to owners not maintaining their oil levels, not changing their oil, or using the wrong grade or specification of oil; rather than a manufacturing defect.

I have run all of my engines (including lawn mower and snow throwers) on the Mobil 1 formulation that met the old stricter GM4718M specification. I have not had a lubrication related issue in that time. You could say that I'm a true believer in the regular Mobil 1 formulation.

I intended on running my diesel on Mobil 1 as well, but have discovered that they do not have a 5w30 viscosity that is registered as Dexos2.

So I intended on using the AC Delco formulation but have learned that it is a semi-synthetic. And Manny has expressed that this was not used as our factory fill.

I used Castrol GTX in my first car, but was not totally confident in it and felt validated when GM de-listed GTX in the mid-2000s. So I'm off Castrol.

I have nothing against Amsoil, and have never heard a bad word about it. But they have never registered a product with GM under the old GM6094M and GM4814M specifications nor the new Dexos1 and Dexos2 specifications. So you could say that they've lost me there.

Therefore, I am looking towards the Total Quartz INEO MC3 product that is a registered Dexos2 product. From what I can tell this oil is sold as a full synthetic in Europe and Canada, but may be cut down as a semi-synthetic in America. Total is a European company involved in Formula 1 racing and our engines are European. As a result I'm currently working on a group buy out of Canada for the full synthetic formula.

 

I would like to know the composition of the GM Dexos2 - what percentage of synthetic etc. Any ideas on how we can get this info?

 

This link is pretty interesting... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnCRLKjwWcpPdEJyVEtlc041TjVVUjJ1U01FMUx1VVE&hl=en_US#gid=0

 

That's cool but I'm not sure what to make of it on my iPad.

 

I used Castrol SLX Professional LL03 5W-30 in my Common Rail TDI.........'cause that's the flavor that VW recommended (507.00 compliant, low ash, etc...), and that's what the dealer stocked. I noticed that it is ACEA C3 compliant as well.

I reviewed the dexos2 document, and saw that several Castrol oils are dexos2 compliant, but the SLX Professional LL03 is not specifically listed. I'm wondering what the difference is between the "SLX Professional LL03" and say...the "Edge Professional OE"...

It would be rather convenient for me to stop by the 'ol VW dealer when it comes time to buy oil...

 

Well I wounder were you got that idea I been telling every one on here Use the VW oil and no one listen to the tech ...I have a migraine .

In one eye, and out the other, I guess... :tututtongue4:

 

Here's a bit more info. Looks like GM Dexos2 is Mid Saps Vauxhall Introduces GM's dexos2 Engine Oil

 

Here's a bit more info. Looks like GM Dexos2 is Mid Saps Vauxhall Introduces GM's dexos2 Engine Oil

Good find!

 

Amazing how hard it is to find good, thorough info on this oill. It does seem like it's been around for a while.

 

Few links I found that report on the specs of these oils:

Fleetcare G2 5W-30
Genuine Gm Dexos 2 High Quality Oil - Buy Motor Oil Product on Alibaba.com
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003691861_201010140218.pdf

And here's a gem.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6773/myastradexos2.jpg

This was GM's Dexos2 oil after 2000km, in a 1.4L Opel Astra. There's something important to note, which I have stated and re-stated several times here. The viscosity is unusually high. Blackstone labs doesn't know why either, but Manny and I both said that it is very high for a 5W-30 oil and is a lot closer to 5W-40 than it is to 5W-30. This report confirms my findings.

If anything, running any oil other than a 5W-40 oil like Manny and I have recommended or GM's Dexos2 (which is a crap non-synthetic oil), will be a lower viscosity than the GM fluid. Further research shows that the only reason why Dexos1 is even used in the US instead of Dexos2 (note - all GM vehicles in Europe use Dexos2), is because Dexos1 is a lower viscosity oil that helps GM meet CAFE standards. In other words, the lower viscosity is used for fuel economy purposes only.

This discovery further reinforces that any non-GM 5W-30 is in fact a lower viscosity fluid than what you would get changed at the dealer, and that the 5W-40 diesel-spec oils that have been recommended are in fact very close to what the GM fluid actually tests at.

Furthermore, a bit of searching on google.co.uk shows that dealerships out there in fact do fill their 2.0L Turbo Diesels in the Cruzes with 5W-40 or 5W-30 engine oil, and that their owner's manuals specify 5W-40 oil.

What Oil do you use in your Cruze? - Holden - Automotive
Chevrolet Cruze engine oil capacity in quarts – liters | Engine Oil Capacity for All Vehicles
Correct engine oil for diesel - Cruze 2.0L Diesel - Chevrolet Cruze Forum
Diesel Cruze not Fast-Starting anymore - Holden - Automotive

It should be abundantly clear by now that GM uses both 5W-30 and 5W-40 Dexos2-spec oil around the world for 2.0L Turbo Diesels, and that since the GM Dexos2 oil is in fact right in the middle between the viscosity of 5W-30 and 5W-40, there would not be any adverse effects from using either.

 

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Some great sleuthing there Andrei.
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This discovery further reinforces that any non-GM 5W-30 is in fact a lower viscosity fluid than what you would get changed at the dealer, and that the 5W-40 diesel-spec oils that have been recommended are in fact very close to what the GM fluid actually tests at.

Furthermore, a bit of searching on google.co.uk shows that dealerships out there in fact do fill their 2.0L Turbo Diesels in the Cruzes with 5W-40 or 5W-30 engine oil, and that their owner's manuals specify 5W-40 oil.

It should be abundantly clear by now that GM uses both 5W-30 and 5W-40 Dexos2-spec oil around the world for 2.0L Turbo Diesels, and that since the GM Dexos2 oil is in fact right in the middle between the viscosity of 5W-30 and 5W-40, there would not be any adverse effects from using either.

A couple of simple questions to reflect on given the above:

1) Why did GM publish in the owner manual only two viscosities for RPO LUZ; both w30?

2) Why did GM emblazon the LUZ engine crankcase cap with dexos2 5w30?

 

I was thinking about all this and have a question for y'all. It seems like the general consensus is that GM branded Dexos2 sucks, but I haven't seen any conclusive proof. I mean, if it meets C3, doesn't that mean it will do its job just fine?

 

In actuality we have very few validated facts to work with.

1) We know for a fact the AC Delco 5w30 oil is a synthetic blend.

2) We know for a fact that it is a dexos2 registered product.

Anything else we we know about this oil comes from unvalidated posts around the Internet.

I had previously suggested to Manny that he send a sample of his surplus 10 litre bottles to Blackstone - but I don't know if he's had a chance to action that.

 

I hate to say it but this is common sense. 5W-40 is just fine. The other car I was heavily considering was a 2014 Mazda 6. In the USA manual it spec'ed 0W-20 ONLY. The rest of the world 5W-30! Exact engine! It's ONLY for MPG. The Cruise diesel is no different. Including the many examples of this motor running across the pond. There is no secret code, no fireworks, 5W-40 is just fine. The dexos2 specification is to make sure people put an oil in their car with appropriate ash level. Since every single car with a DPF system has their own "special" designation that's not special at all compared to the others, they had to make theirs too. After-all I wouldn't expect GM to recommend I use oil that meets VW or Mercedes requirements.

With a little common sense I think we have access to plenty of great, functional oils here stateside. No they can't void your warranty if you use an oil that meets dexos2 requirements that isn't labeled as such. In the worse, least likely, you should go play the lottery circumstance that anyone has to face this problem, they could just have the virgin oil tested at a lab to prove it meets the requirements. The dexos2 label is just a dummy-proof guide.

 

I hate to say it but this is common sense. 5W-40 is just fine. The other car I was heavily considering was a 2014 Mazda 6. In the USA manual it spec'ed 0W-20 ONLY. The rest of the world 5W-30! Exact engine! It's ONLY for MPG. The Cruise diesel is no different. Including the many examples of this motors running across the pond. There is no secret code, no fireworks, 5W-40 is just fine. The dexos2 specification is to make sure people put an oil in their car with appropriate ash level. Since every single car with a DPF system has their own "special" designation that's not special at all compared to the others, they had to make theirs too. Afterall I wouldn't expect GM to recommend I use oil that meets VW or Mercedes requirements.

With a little common sense I think we have access to plenty of great, functional oils here stateside. No they can't void your warranty if you use an oil that meets dexos2 requirements that isn't labeled as such. In the worse, least likely, should go play the lottery circumstance that anyone has to face this problem, they could just have the virgin oil tested at a lab to prove it meets the requirements. The dexos2 label is just a dummy-proof guide.

Keeping in mind that lubricants are a personal interest of yours, here's what I glean from your post:

1) Those seeking maximum fuel economy should use a w30.

2) If you don't use a dexos2 registered product, or if you don't use a w30 oil, you should feel free to proclaim this clearly to your dealership because they can't invalidate your warranty.

Please correct me if I've misinterpreted your post.

BTW I agree on the logo being a dummy-proof guide.