Dexos2 And Equivalent Diesel Motor Oil

Tomko · Sep 30, 2013

diesel said:
So, if the Mobil 1 oil is of the wrong viscosity but certified as Dexos2, is it warranty compliant?

In a word, no.

Warranty calls for the correct viscosity (5w30 or 0w30 for extreme cold) and the correct specification (Dexos2 or if unavailable ACEA C3). Page 10-14 of the owner manual.

zr1000a1 · Sep 30, 2013

I have one major caveat to what is being said, that I personally follow. Although some automatic transmissions, especially of older generations were good with multi-vehicle fluids, I believe that it is imperative to stick with exactly what it was designed for and no multi or universal fluids. I would apply this to CVT's and possibly DCT's too.
Manufacturers deny warranty all the time for wrong or universal transmission fluids. Then the company that did the exchange and or the manufacturer of the multivehicle transmission fluid might step up and cover the costs, while persuing the car manufacturer in court. Valvoline with it's Maxlife transmission fluid seems to have it's share of problems. This link below has a pdf that is really interesting about this. Also includes manuals of different car manufacturers like GM and Subaru and it's requirements for specific fluids. Subaru is clear to only use their engine oil with their new turbos.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/warrantyrules/00022-80832.pdf

Tomko · Sep 30, 2013

I agree with Andrei. GM is primarily interested in seeing your car through the warranty period. Oil based engine failures are rare these days within the warranty period. From my understanding those failures that do occur are more often attributed to owners not maintaining their oil levels, not changing their oil, or using the wrong grade or specification of oil; rather than a manufacturing defect.

I have run all of my engines (including lawn mower and snow throwers) on the Mobil 1 formulation that met the old stricter GM4718M specification. I have not had a lubrication related issue in that time. You could say that I'm a true believer in the regular Mobil 1 formulation.

I intended on running my diesel on Mobil 1 as well, but have discovered that they do not have a 5w30 viscosity that is registered as Dexos2.

So I intended on using the AC Delco formulation but have learned that it is a semi-synthetic. And Manny has expressed that this was not used as our factory fill.

I used Castrol GTX in my first car, but was not totally confident in it and felt validated when GM de-listed GTX in the mid-2000s. So I'm off Castrol.

I have nothing against Amsoil, and have never heard a bad word about it. But they have never registered a product with GM under the old GM6094M and GM4814M specifications nor the new Dexos1 and Dexos2 specifications. So you could say that they've lost me there.

Therefore, I am looking towards the Total Quartz INEO MC3 product that is a registered Dexos2 product. From what I can tell this oil is sold as a full synthetic in Europe and Canada, but may be cut down as a semi-synthetic in America. Total is a European company involved in Formula 1 racing and our engines are European. As a result I'm currently working on a group buy out of Canada for the full synthetic formula.

XtremeRevolution · Sep 30, 2013

zr1000a1 said:
I have one major caveat to what is being said, that I personally follow. Although some automatic transmissions, especially of older generations were good with multi-vehicle fluids, I believe that it is imperative to stick with exactly what it was designed for and no multi or universal fluids. I would apply this to CVT's and possibly DCT's too.
Manufacturers deny warranty all the time for wrong or universal transmission fluids. Then the company that did the exchange and or the manufacturer of the multivehicle transmission fluid might step up and cover the costs, while persuing the car manufacturer in court. Valvoline with it's Maxlife transmission fluid seems to have it's share of problems. This link below has a pdf that is really interesting about this. Also includes manuals of different car manufacturers like GM and Subaru and it's requirements for specific fluids. Subaru is clear to only use their engine oil with their new turbos.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/warrantyrules/00022-80832.pdf

Automatic transmission fluids are another one of those things. Some vehicles require a specific fill procedure, such as the new Toyota Tundras. You cannot fill it correctly yourself and you have to take it to a shop that has the Toyota fill machine for that specific transmission. I think it's stupid to force the owner to stay out of the maintenance process, but I digress.

With regard to what was said about certifications, I have no trouble recommending Amsoil almost universally for a very specific reasons: their products are superior. They are a special case in that they don't advertise heavily in the retail market and depend instead on independent dealers to sell their products. However, you will never find a single person saying a single bad thing about them (except in cases that can be easily narrowed down as user error), and that is for a good reason. Mobil 1 prides themselves in advertising that they make the unrivaled best fluid out there. Amsoil has tested and refuted this claim with their synthetic oils.

The way I look at it, if Amsoil outperforms Mobil 1 full synthetic in all aspects, across the board, then what do certifications mean for me? In a word, nothing. Should any dealership attempt to have an oil testing analysis taken of your car with Amsoil in it, they will likely be pleasantly surprised by how well the oil is holding up. As I said before, I don't promote and sell Amsoil because I'm a dealer; rather I chose to be a dealer because they have the best products on the market, and this is not based on reputation alone.

With regard to viscosity, my experience has been that it is far more dangerous to run a lower Viscosity than it is to run a higher one, and the difference in viscosity while hot between 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually quite minimal. This is not the case with the cold specification. I've had friends destroy engines by running too low of a viscosity (accidentally filling 5W-20 instead of 5W-30), but not the other way around. I personally run Rotella T6 5W-40 in my wife's car, which calls for 5W-30. Rotella T6 is very widely recommended on many automotive boards including the Maxima forums as an excellent and affordable alternative to other 5W-30 spec oils. Manny mentioned quite a few times that the difference in viscosity when comparing Diesel-spec 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually extremely minimal. I have personally verified this and in addition, I have also noticed that there is a significant variation in tested kinematic viscosity between oils of the exact same viscosity rating. As a result, the debate between whether to use 5W-30 or 5W-40 is a moot one in my opinion, especially when you consider that there are oils by several manufacturers that meet the Dexos2 specification that are advertised as 5W-40.

Tomko · Sep 30, 2013

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My views are more or less consistent with you until this point.
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XtremeRevolution said:
Manny mentioned quite a few times that the difference in viscosity when comparing Diesel-spec 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually extremely minimal. I have personally verified this and in addition, I have also noticed that there is a significant variation in tested kinematic viscosity between oils of the exact same viscosity rating. As a result, the debate between whether to use 5W-30 or 5W-40 is a moot one in my opinion, especially when you consider that there are oils by several manufacturers that meet the Dexos2 specification that are advertised as 5W-40.

Manny was speaking about the factory fill oil when he said it was a heavy 5w30 - close to a 40. I have seen some diesel 30 oils described as a 38 on other boards. Manny also mentioned that the factory fill was a special oil that we should keep in the crankcase for 10K.

I believe GM takes very seriously what it publishes as viscosity specifications for its engines. I don't believe that the engineers who make these decisions do so casually. Therefore in my view if they intended the non-factory fill oil to be a w40 they would have printed that. But they identified only two viscosities for the LUZ engine and both are w30.

A w30+ may be fine for factory fill but it may not be right for post-factory fill service.

Years ago, GM specified 10w30, or 10w40 severe service, for its engines. They stopped specifying w40 after it was discovered that engines operating at high temperatures would sludge up on w40. Seems counterintuitive but that's what happened.

In my view, our engines are too new in America for any of us to know better than GM's engineers. So my personal decision is to stay with the w30 viscosity.

Furthermore, I feel it would be misguided to interpret any Dexos2 oil as compliant irregardless of viscosity. Dexos specification is independent of viscosity, and viscosity is independent of Dexos specification.

Of course you're free to experiment and innovate with your own engines and report back to us on how things worked out. But please don't tell us that GM sold you a POS, or didn't honour your warranty, if you didn't follow their specifications.

diesel · Sep 30, 2013

I would like to know the composition of the GM Dexos2 - what percentage of synthetic etc. Any ideas on how we can get this info?

diesel · Sep 30, 2013

This link is pretty interesting... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnCRLKjwWcpPdEJyVEtlc041TjVVUjJ1U01FMUx1VVE&hl=en_US#gid=0

Tomko · Sep 30, 2013

diesel said:
This link is pretty interesting... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnCRLKjwWcpPdEJyVEtlc041TjVVUjJ1U01FMUx1VVE&hl=en_US#gid=0

That's cool but I'm not sure what to make of it on my iPad.

diesel · Sep 30, 2013

Tomko said:
That's cool but I'm not sure what to make of it on my iPad.

I am not sure the source of the data but had the ash content and other info of the GM brnaded Dexos2

plasticplant · Sep 30, 2013

zr1000a1 said:
I have one major caveat to what is being said, that I personally follow. Although some automatic transmissions, especially of older generations were good with multi-vehicle fluids, I believe that it is imperative to stick with exactly what it was designed for and no multi or universal fluids. I would apply this to CVT's and possibly DCT's too.
Manufacturers deny warranty all the time for wrong or universal transmission fluids. Then the company that did the exchange and or the manufacturer of the multivehicle transmission fluid might step up and cover the costs, while persuing the car manufacturer in court. Valvoline with it's Maxlife transmission fluid seems to have it's share of problems. This link below has a pdf that is really interesting about this. Also includes manuals of different car manufacturers like GM and Subaru and it's requirements for specific fluids. Subaru is clear to only use their engine oil with their new turbos.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/warrantyrules/00022-80832.pdf

Why won't you be running the Mobil 1 ESP (5W-30)? I thought this oil was a Dexos2 equivalent?

XtremeRevolution · Sep 30, 2013

Tomko said:
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My views are more or less consistent with you until this point.
|

Manny was speaking about the factory fill oil when he said it was a heavy 5w30 - close to a 40. I have seen some diesel 30 oils described as a 38 on other boards. Manny also mentioned that the factory fill was a special oil that we should keep in the crankcase for 10K.

I believe GM takes very seriously what it publishes as viscosity specifications for its engines. I don't believe that the engineers who make these decisions do so casually. Therefore in my view if they intended the non-factory fill oil to be a w40 they would have printed that. But they identified only two viscosities for the LUZ engine and both are w30.

A w30+ may be fine for factory fill but it may not be right for post-factory fill service.

Years ago, GM specified 10w30, or 10w40 severe service, for its engines. They stopped specifying w40 after it was discovered that engines operating at high temperatures would sludge up on w40. Seems counterintuitive but that's what happened.

In my view, our engines are too new in America for any of us to know better than GM's engineers. So my personal decision is to stay with the w30 viscosity.

Furthermore, I feel it would be misguided to interpret any Dexos2 oil as compliant irregardless of viscosity. Dexos specification is independent of viscosity, and viscosity is independent of Dexos specification.

Of course you're free to experiment and innovate with your own engines and report back to us on how things worked out. But please don't tell us that GM sold you a POS, or didn't honour your warranty, if you didn't follow their specifications.

I see no reason why an engine could run a 5W-40 spec oil for 10k miles and potentially cause issues if run for any fluid change thereafter. The concept does not make any sense. I'm not an engineer by any means but this one doesn't make sense at all.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App

DieselEnvy · Sep 30, 2013

I used Castrol SLX Professional LL03 5W-30 in my Common Rail TDI.........'cause that's the flavor that VW recommended (507.00 compliant, low ash, etc...), and that's what the dealer stocked. I noticed that it is ACEA C3 compliant as well.

I reviewed the dexos2 document, and saw that several Castrol oils are dexos2 compliant, but the SLX Professional LL03 is not specifically listed. I'm wondering what the difference is between the "SLX Professional LL03" and say...the "Edge Professional OE"...

It would be rather convenient for me to stop by the 'ol VW dealer when it comes time to buy oil...

DieselEnvy · Oct 1, 2013

Well I wounder were you got that idea I been telling every one on here Use the VW oil and no one listen to the tech ...I have a migraine .

In one eye, and out the other, I guess... :tututtongue4:

zr1000a1 · Oct 1, 2013

XtremeRevolution said:
Automatic transmission fluids are another one of those things. Some vehicles require a specific fill procedure, such as the new Toyota Tundras. You cannot fill it correctly yourself and you have to take it to a shop that has the Toyota fill machine for that specific transmission. I think it's stupid to force the owner to stay out of the maintenance process, but I digress. ...
...With regard to viscosity, my experience has been that it is far more dangerous to run a lower Viscosity than it is to run a higher one, and the difference in viscosity while hot between 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually quite minimal. This is not the case with the cold specification. I've had friends destroy engines by running too low of a viscosity (accidentally filling 5W-20 instead of 5W-30), but not the other way around. I personally run Rotella T6 5W-40 in my wife's car, which calls for 5W-30. Rotella T6 is very widely recommended on many automotive boards including the Maxima forums as an excellent and affordable alternative to other 5W-30 spec oils. Manny mentioned quite a few times that the difference in viscosity when comparing Diesel-spec 5W-30 and 5W-40 is actually extremely minimal. I have personally verified this and in addition, I have also noticed that there is a significant variation in tested kinematic viscosity between oils of the exact same viscosity rating. As a result, the debate between whether to use 5W-30 or 5W-40 is a moot one in my opinion, especially when you consider that there are oils by several manufacturers that meet the Dexos2 specification that are advertised as 5W-40.

I agree. They are making transmission checks and servicing more complicated for the home mechanic. I did not realize the Tundra was such a PITA for transmission service. On the other hand, some of the newer transmissions with drain and fill plugs do have their advantage. Especially the ones where you fill till it overflows, then you know you are at the right level. Run for a while, then recheck or top off. Seems like my old Dakota 4x4, the differentials (pumpkins) had different fill levels for front and back. Something like fill to a ¼ inch from top on one, and ½ on the other, instead of letting you fill till overflow. Nothing like fingering your hole while you fill, trying to gauge how full. But I digress, getting back to filling the differential.........
Luckily my 2010 Pontiac Vibe base 1.8 still has a dipstick and a drain plug on that antiquated 4-speed. I am appreciating that car more and more, including the tranny and it's dipstick as the years go by. The 4 speed transmission is pretty decent too, but again I digress. It took 15-18k miles to get it broke in enough for gas mileage to go up. I wonder what role the Toyota and Mobil 1 0w-20 might of played in the long break in period. If I were using Amsoil I probably would still be waiting for a break in! For a car EPA rated at only 26 city and 31 highway, I am now getting low to mid 30's in mixed driving. Listening to 70aarcuda and his experience with the Vibe and gas mileage was beneficial! Just needed to be patient. She has turned into a good little runner, purrs like a kitten. The Vibenator is not too shabby either. Think I might name her Devine.

When it comes to viscosity of some oils, they say that the regular PCMO Mobil 1 20's are on the heavy side, and the 30's are on the lighter side.
I do like the the Rotella T6 5w-40 synthetic in my motorcycle, even though I have a somewhat high revving engine and a wet clutch sharing the crankcase oil. There are some mixed results on BITOG with it because of the excessive shearing some engines with wet clutches do. Must be mostly group 3 base with more viscosity improvers than a more expensive group 4 or 5 oil, but I rarely put over 1500 miles on my Zed before I change the oil. The T6 tends to give me that buttery smooth shifting longer than the Kawa oils, and a few other 10w-40's I have tried. Engine seems quieter too.

Tomko · Oct 1, 2013

XtremeRevolution said:
I see no reason why an engine could run a 5W-40 spec oil for 10k miles and potentially cause issues if run for any fluid change thereafter. The concept does not make any sense. I'm not an engineer by any means but this one doesn't make sense at all.

Sent from AutoGuide.com App

I'm pretty active on another board. There's another member who works on the inside and has been very helpful to others. As a former warranty administrator he posted the following.

MrCritical said:
He can buy a crappy oil filter that does a poor job or put the wrong weight oil in his engine causing it to prematurely fail, and that won't be warrantable either. (PS-engineers can tell in an engine failure if you've been running the wrong weight oil-CSI has nothing on these guys).

The thread was about altering the Powertrain programming and it's effects on warranty coverage. The entire thread, and especially the posts of MrCritical, are of interest to those whose financial situations causes them to rely on their warranty.

You can read it here:

Hypertech?

diesel · Oct 1, 2013

Here's a bit more info. Looks like GM Dexos2 is Mid Saps Vauxhall Introduces GM's dexos2 Engine Oil

Tomko · Oct 1, 2013

diesel said:
Here's a bit more info. Looks like GM Dexos2 is Mid Saps Vauxhall Introduces GM's dexos2 Engine Oil

Good find!

diesel · Oct 1, 2013

Amazing how hard it is to find good, thorough info on this oill. It does seem like it's been around for a while.

XtremeRevolution · Oct 1, 2013

Few links I found that report on the specs of these oils:

Fleetcare G2 5W-30
Genuine Gm Dexos 2 High Quality Oil - Buy Motor Oil Product on Alibaba.com
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140003691861_201010140218.pdf

And here's a gem.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6773/myastradexos2.jpg

This was GM's Dexos2 oil after 2000km, in a 1.4L Opel Astra. There's something important to note, which I have stated and re-stated several times here. The viscosity is unusually high. Blackstone labs doesn't know why either, but Manny and I both said that it is very high for a 5W-30 oil and is a lot closer to 5W-40 than it is to 5W-30. This report confirms my findings.

If anything, running any oil other than a 5W-40 oil like Manny and I have recommended or GM's Dexos2 (which is a crap non-synthetic oil), will be a lower viscosity than the GM fluid. Further research shows that the only reason why Dexos1 is even used in the US instead of Dexos2 (note - all GM vehicles in Europe use Dexos2), is because Dexos1 is a lower viscosity oil that helps GM meet CAFE standards. In other words, the lower viscosity is used for fuel economy purposes only.

This discovery further reinforces that any non-GM 5W-30 is in fact a lower viscosity fluid than what you would get changed at the dealer, and that the 5W-40 diesel-spec oils that have been recommended are in fact very close to what the GM fluid actually tests at.

Furthermore, a bit of searching on google.co.uk shows that dealerships out there in fact do fill their 2.0L Turbo Diesels in the Cruzes with 5W-40 or 5W-30 engine oil, and that their owner's manuals specify 5W-40 oil.

What Oil do you use in your Cruze? - Holden - Automotive
Chevrolet Cruze engine oil capacity in quarts – liters | Engine Oil Capacity for All Vehicles
Correct engine oil for diesel - Cruze 2.0L Diesel - Chevrolet Cruze Forum
Diesel Cruze not Fast-Starting anymore - Holden - Automotive

It should be abundantly clear by now that GM uses both 5W-30 and 5W-40 Dexos2-spec oil around the world for 2.0L Turbo Diesels, and that since the GM Dexos2 oil is in fact right in the middle between the viscosity of 5W-30 and 5W-40, there would not be any adverse effects from using either.

Tomko · Oct 1, 2013

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Some great sleuthing there Andrei.
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XtremeRevolution said:
This discovery further reinforces that any non-GM 5W-30 is in fact a lower viscosity fluid than what you would get changed at the dealer, and that the 5W-40 diesel-spec oils that have been recommended are in fact very close to what the GM fluid actually tests at.

Furthermore, a bit of searching on google.co.uk shows that dealerships out there in fact do fill their 2.0L Turbo Diesels in the Cruzes with 5W-40 or 5W-30 engine oil, and that their owner's manuals specify 5W-40 oil.

It should be abundantly clear by now that GM uses both 5W-30 and 5W-40 Dexos2-spec oil around the world for 2.0L Turbo Diesels, and that since the GM Dexos2 oil is in fact right in the middle between the viscosity of 5W-30 and 5W-40, there would not be any adverse effects from using either.

A couple of simple questions to reflect on given the above:

1) Why did GM publish in the owner manual only two viscosities for RPO LUZ; both w30?

2) Why did GM emblazon the LUZ engine crankcase cap with dexos2 5w30?

Dexos2 And Equivalent Diesel Motor Oil

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XtremeRevolution

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DieselEnvy

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XtremeRevolution

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