I don't want to get into a discussion about which brakeing system stops the best. The simple fact is only cars with drum rear brakes seem to constantly have park brake issues. So why would you put 2 different types of parts on basically the same car? Other countries use the all disc system exclusively and have no park brake issues. If the park brake is out so is the foot brake and this is not good. Women, who are usually not mechanically minded drive these cars and could get into trouble if they don't notice the leaver getting higher, some guys as well. Please for peace of mind make the best possible available reliable braking system standard for all models.
Aussie
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Do the front disc brakes give an equal amount of trouble? If not why not? The rear drum in disc system has been the best system I have ever had on a car for reliability. 13 years and 250,000 km with only pad changes and original drum linings are hard to beat. This was in a RWD Commodore V6 3800 5 speed manual. My son has a 5.7 6m Wagon with the same brakes and also no problems. Our cars have alloy calipers that may be the difference?
By the way I hold a heavy vehicle driving license so I know about truck brakes, It is difficult to set up a disc brake where the air holds the brakes off so the vehicle can move and to automatically apply the brakes if the air system fails.
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I have watched "ICE ROAD TRUCKERS" and I would be surprised if anything could survive up there without issues. Those drivers are either fearless or insane, but you have to admire them. Today in Sydney it is the last Sunday of winter and it was 21C (70F). Winter this year was really mild lowest I saw on my DIC was 6C (42F), on my way home from work at 12:30am.
Rear discs give more trouble because more road schmutz hits the rear than the front - the front lifts the grime off the road and the rears collect it - which causes more corrosion especially to the slide pins and calipers. Drums are protected from collecting all the crap.
I've had less difficulty with drums on my cars than the cars I've had with discs, generally because the slide pins or calipers would become corroded and would seize. The late 90's GM cars with discs were so bad the calipers would fall out of the car due to the corrosion.
Regarding "heavy vehicle", It's not really more difficult to set up disc brakes on trucks, heavy trucks do have disc brakes in the front; it's that it's more difficult to create as much surface area for friction with discs. Disc's for a heavy truck would have to be enormous in comparison to the amount of surface area attainable by having really deep drums. - and on trucks, more braking is with the rear because there's so much more weight on the back wheels it's less likely to lose traction due to the weight transfer due to the length and weight of the vehicle - (however if you over brake the rears on any vehicle you will lose traction and control).[EDIT - I did a little more research since I've been out of the cab for a few years, it looks like disc technology for heavy trucks has been evolving: http://www.foundationbrakes.com/media/documents/airdiscbrakes/awhitepapercaseforairdiscbrakes.pdf [EDIT]
Regarding the 20% being only a guess, I believe it's between 20 and 30% depending on the vehicle. Look at the size difference between your front and rear disc's - and look at the huge difference in the size of the pads. I haven't looked at the rear discs on a Cruze, but all the cars I've had with rear discs, the fronts were substantial AND they were vented, the rears were much smaller and NOT vented. If you set the rears up to grab much more than they do, you'll end up locking up the rears and lose control.
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again, not true. The parking brake can be out of adjustment to where it doesn't even work and you could still have perfectly functional brakes. The wheel cylinders on drum brakes provide much greater physical travel distance of the shoes compared to the parking brake. You can have the shoe worn to the backing plate and it will likely still touch the drum with the hydraulic system. As I stated before, they are totally different systems that work completely differently.
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This is the best system overall because the parking brake shoes never get used when driving. I personally prefer disc brakes but all you need to do to keep drums working top notch is adjust them every 15,000 or so. But when you look at it from a cost stand point you end up with front disc brakes and rear disc brakes, which cost more, then on top of that you pay for a set of mechanical drum brakes for the rear. Cost and weight are quite a bit higher than drums off the bat, and then there are more parts/pieces to service or repair as they wear out and they also wear out faster. That is why you will continue to see them on budget oriented vehicles
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There are two ways for parking brakes to be out of adjustment. The first, and apparently the most common in the Cruze, is for the rear brakes to be out of adjustment to the extent that they are working at all. The second is for the parking brake cables to be too long, either by stretching or by not being adjusted properly. Yes, cables do stretch. The Cruze supports separate adjustment of the rear drums and the parking brake cable.
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To my knowledge and experience all drum brake cars do this, The only exception to this was a 1976 Subaru wagon I owned which had the handbrake on the front disc brakes, and without an internal drum but on the calipers.
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Brake cables stretch on all cars regardless of what kind of brakes, the difference with drum brakes is the shoes are wearing at the same time so it becomes more prominent. You can only bend/stretch metal so many times before it no longer goes back to it's original shape. That's all that is going on with the parking brake. When you pull the lever up you are putting tension on the steel cables that go to the brake shoes, and like any other spring metal they eventually lose their bounce back.
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Nobody has mentioned the brake dust that gathers in drum brakes, or the pulsating pedal when the drum goes out of round. But enough of whose is best, the point is that Australia is mostly dust and heat outside of the major cities and USA in the North is cold and Ice so obviously we call things according to our experience and all disc brakes are superior in our driving conditions. It is up to you to decide which is best in your turf. Happy Cruzing everyone.
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That is not totally correct. Non-ferrous metals will break eventually after being deformed regardless of how little they bend. Ferrous metals can be deformed without any adverse affects as long as you do not exceed its yield strength.
Disc brakes have the same issues. They don't suffer from out of round but they do suffer from thickness variation that causes pedal pulsation.
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There is a very simple reason cables will stretch - they aren't solid. Look at any cable and you'll see it's braided from smaller cables, down to wires about one mm or less in diameter. The reason cables stretch is nothing more than these smaller strands seating in as the cable is placed under tension. It's a slow process but it occurs with all stranded cables, regardless of the material.
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Honestly after reading this, you have to understand a few things.
Yes, they're drums. Yes, they may not look "as cool"
They may not be as "performance orientated" as you'd have hoped.
BUT:
-The Chevy Cruze isn't a sports car
-Rear drums work (proven) roughly the same as rear discs
-Your stopping power comes from primarily your front disc brakes
-There are aftermarket ceramic brakes, and other options to make your rear drums "better" than oem.
-Replacing rear drums can be annoying to replace, but it's a straightforward procedure it's a dome, with an inn-erred pad that activates by just a simple spring assembly (old and proven tech)
-cheaper to service drums, than caliper/rotors/pads.
Safety issues that you had reported are easily either chocked up to the giant recall they're having now, or something else.
Yes, they're drums. Yes, they may not look "as cool"
They may not be as "performance orientated" as you'd have hoped.
BUT:
-The Chevy Cruze isn't a sports car
-Rear drums work (proven) roughly the same as rear discs
-Your stopping power comes from primarily your front disc brakes
-There are aftermarket ceramic brakes, and other options to make your rear drums "better" than oem.
-Replacing rear drums can be annoying to replace, but it's a straightforward procedure it's a dome, with an inn-erred pad that activates by just a simple spring assembly (old and proven tech)
-cheaper to service drums, than caliper/rotors/pads.
Safety issues that you had reported are easily either chocked up to the giant recall they're having now, or something else.
Got on gmpartsdirect, don't even show a parts diagram for what is required to convert, and several of the parts you know are needed are not even listed. But what are, would be a small fortune to convert.
With all the pros listed for rear disk brakes, maybe instead of complaining about them, should brag instead.
Ha, ha, my car does have disk brakes, ha, ha, and yours don't!
But this is based on over 33 years of experience in dealing with rear disk brakes. Unlike regular calipers that are inherently self adjusting, these require esoteric knowledge on how to operate the parking brake for adjustment. And the mechanism itself is exposed to road hazards, not a closed system like standard calipers. When the pad gap increases, and the brake level returns to the home position, a dog slips into a ratchet gear and turns and exposed screw to close the gap. That in a couple of years would be a pile of rust.
One thing I would say in favor of the Cruze, they finally plated the parts. But see on my levers, surface rust is starting to appear. Just a quick glance at the plating equipment? But my next job is to clean the external surfaces and hand paint them. Removing any caliper also requires specialized equipment to active the the ABS for proper bleeding. Unless you know how to work around that.
Also see a new ABS costs 1/20th the price of a new Cruze, just for two components you can barely find in the car. But did fine a rear disk caliper rebuilding kit for 20 bucks, least I think its for the rear calipers.
But just for a quick price comparison, and not knowing if the ABS has to be changes as well, these to have to be tuned for the car, along with the rest of the parts. If you really want rear disk brakes, think it would be cheaper to trade your Cruze off for one that has them.
For me a trade off, wanting a power driver's seat, better radio, a spare tire, leather interior with electrical heated seats, a thousand buck option with a 200 buck discount. They tossed in the rear disk brakes in free. But expecting a huge return for service. Doing this for the dealers with all these dealer installed options.
What's next on their list? Instead of giving us a discount, will be getting worthless points like everyone else is doing.
With all the pros listed for rear disk brakes, maybe instead of complaining about them, should brag instead.
Ha, ha, my car does have disk brakes, ha, ha, and yours don't!
But this is based on over 33 years of experience in dealing with rear disk brakes. Unlike regular calipers that are inherently self adjusting, these require esoteric knowledge on how to operate the parking brake for adjustment. And the mechanism itself is exposed to road hazards, not a closed system like standard calipers. When the pad gap increases, and the brake level returns to the home position, a dog slips into a ratchet gear and turns and exposed screw to close the gap. That in a couple of years would be a pile of rust.
One thing I would say in favor of the Cruze, they finally plated the parts. But see on my levers, surface rust is starting to appear. Just a quick glance at the plating equipment? But my next job is to clean the external surfaces and hand paint them. Removing any caliper also requires specialized equipment to active the the ABS for proper bleeding. Unless you know how to work around that.
Also see a new ABS costs 1/20th the price of a new Cruze, just for two components you can barely find in the car. But did fine a rear disk caliper rebuilding kit for 20 bucks, least I think its for the rear calipers.
But just for a quick price comparison, and not knowing if the ABS has to be changes as well, these to have to be tuned for the car, along with the rest of the parts. If you really want rear disk brakes, think it would be cheaper to trade your Cruze off for one that has them.
For me a trade off, wanting a power driver's seat, better radio, a spare tire, leather interior with electrical heated seats, a thousand buck option with a 200 buck discount. They tossed in the rear disk brakes in free. But expecting a huge return for service. Doing this for the dealers with all these dealer installed options.
What's next on their list? Instead of giving us a discount, will be getting worthless points like everyone else is doing.
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Hmm.. Rear drums stop the car, and can last the life of it if it's a manual transmission. I don't think more needs to be said. As rear calipers age they start to stick and wear pads out faster. Drum brakes need to be adjusted where caliper pins need to be lubricated if the brakes are on for an extended period of time. Both braking systems work well it's all personal preference to what you like. I prefer the look of disc brakes but I love the longevity of drums. I've done the swap and I'll never do it again, just not worth it. I don't particularly care if a car comes with disks or drums to me it's pretty much the same thing.
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Regardless of their benefits (rear disc brakes vs. rear drum brakes), attempting to persuade GM about anything is like "...tugging on Superman's cape..." or "...pi$$ing into the wind..." -- it just AIN'T gonna happen people -- GM has their (best intere$t) reasons and customer input is avoided like a plague.
The bottom line is NOT your safety, but rather their (GM's) co$t-differential -- i.e.: drum brakes are cheaper, which allows drum-braked models to be lower priced.
The bottom line is NOT your safety, but rather their (GM's) co$t-differential -- i.e.: drum brakes are cheaper, which allows drum-braked models to be lower priced.
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"Disk" brakes makes me think of these being pressed against a wheel:
![Image]()
I'm too lazy to Photoshop that, though.
I'm too lazy to Photoshop that, though.
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1,930 Posts
This was your initial argument Aussie, that drums were unsafe (especially for women, which I also don't agree with but you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think anyone here will question discs as an overall better set-up, but hardly a reason to banish them from existence. You can make the same argument for the thousands of people driving disc brake cars that are down to the backing plates because they never check them. Regardless of the set-up ignorant drivers are the issue, not the mechanics.
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This is the very reason I don't understand why 2 types of brakes are installed, if lets say half the Cruze cars have drums and half have discs, wouldn't it be more cost effective to make them all the same as this would mean larger numbers of whichever system they used the per unit price would come down?
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